Whats happening with the LF market?

photobackpacker · May 3, 2005

There seems to be confusing data on all sides. The prediction that film is dead - digital is king, etc, etc, ad nauseum. On the other hand, we are seeing new (and expensive) LF cameras, a ceaseless appetite for high quality used gear on ebay and the health of APUG.

I have read anecdotal reports on the health of LF from Shutterbug, View Camera and others. Has anyone seen any sound, documented research on the LF market in print or offered for sale?

Dave Parker · May 3, 2005

Well as a manufacture, who's business is very dependant on the LF format Market, I can tell for sure, film is NOT dead, our orders for new screens are going through the roof, in addition to the new companies comming online and ready to sell the next generatrion of LF photographers, we are currently scambling to keep up with a 4-6 week backlog of screen orders, in addition to supplying glass to Jack Deardorff for his new line of cameras as well as Jim Chinn with his new line of ULF cameras and have done orders for Phillips and Son, and a host of restoration services around the country, and have had contact with another new company that is getting ready to start marketing 4x5 cameras, in 2004 we sold over 1200 screens in 8 months, and we have exceded that already as of May 1st, so there seems to be a very strong following of LF enthusiasts out there, willing to go the extra mile to learn the LF game.

There is no one in this country or around the world that can tell me that film is dead, I think there may be some who think their predictions of doom are truthful, but not by my state of business, film is not dead, but I feel it is in the hands of some dedicated people who enjoy it and will continue to keep it alive. As once was said 'The rumors of my demise, have been greatly exagerated'!

Dave Parker
Satin Snow Ground Glass

Jorge · May 4, 2005

The LF community is too small to warrant a serious marketing study of the kind you want. The best people to know would be Kodak and Ilford, they know how much sheet film they sell and how much it has increased/decreased in the past years, but I doubt they will provide you with this info.

If we use E bay as a gauge, then I would say LF is in good shape as cameras are being sold and bought all the time...someone must be using all those cameras being sold, no?

Jim Chinn · May 4, 2005

Even though I am still working on getting my cameras to market, I can say that I have received over 50 requests for information and details for placing a camera order. And that is just from a few posts about the cameras here on APUG. All from individuals either working in ULF or those wanting to begin working with those formats.

I had a conversation with Jim from Midwest Photo Exchange when he was in town for a camera show. He told me they were selling more new 4x5 cameras then ever before as well as brisk business with the used gear.

There is a huge interest in all manner of alternative processes, from platinum, to wet plate, to bromoils.

I am always reading posts on various forums about phtographers making the LF plunge and why not, the water is perfect with bargains on all kinds of equipment.

I believe that there is a LF aesthetic that cannnot be duplicated with digital cameras or backs. I also think there will be a growing recognition of film and LF in particular as a unique tool and artistic medium with a continued high demand by collectors and galleries.

I also believe that coating emulsions on a polyester backing with consistent quality is not some magic process but can be achieved with some ingenuity on a micro-commercial scale if the major players quit the business.

chuck94022 · May 4, 2005

Jim Chinn said:
I believe that there is a LF aesthetic that cannnot be duplicated with digital cameras or backs. I also think there will be a growing recognition of film and LF in particular as a unique tool and artistic medium with a continued high demand by collectors and galleries.

Not to mention the fact that it is just damn fun to mess around with low tech equipment, processes, and chemistry. In this day of automated this and computerized that, it is refreshing to participate in something that can be unpredictable, messy, and so dependent upon the skill of a human being, yet when done well produces a result superior to the best that computers can achieve.

John Kasaian · May 4, 2005

Bruce,

LF is a paradox.

Graeme Hird · May 4, 2005

and a paradigm!

chuck94022 · May 4, 2005

Jim Chinn said:
I also believe that coating emulsions on a polyester backing with consistent quality is not some magic process but can be achieved with some ingenuity on a micro-commercial scale if the major players quit the business.

I think this is worth a separate topic. See the following: (there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Trent Westin · May 4, 2005

I am too scared to think seriously about the LF market.
Now I am spending some months in Italy and I see how difficult is even to buy 4x5 kodak or fuji films. Impossible is to find 5x7 films (c41). Very hard close to impossible 5x7 (e6).

paul owen · May 4, 2005

Film will NOT die! LF will be the "new" digital ! We will take over the world! HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!! I agree that choices of film may be limited but there is still a market for sheet film, in all shapes and sizes! Film from the BIG manufacturers may become scarce? But there seems to be a thriving industry in France (Bergger) and Hungary/East European countries that continues to manufacture sheet film. We might have to accept that you won't be able to walk off the street and buy sheet film easily, but in my opinion it will continue to be made by these "specialists" ... as long as we continue to BUY it!

Daniel Grenier · May 4, 2005

Mark Twain said upon hearing of his falsely reported passing: "Reports of my death have been greatly exagerated".

I think it is safe to use the same quote for LF and film for a long time yet.

jovo · May 4, 2005

I wonder if some people think of LF as the safest of all camera formats to invest in because of its clear superiority with film for now as well as the notion that it will be the easiest to adapt to digital when the price and availability of extremey high quality backs make digital a choice more traditional photographers will consider. Try turning a Nikon F6 into a digicam of my much beloved P67. But my solid old Omega View may soldier on as a digicam someday in the (I hope) far distant future.

colrehogan · May 4, 2005

chuck94022 said:
Not to mention the fact that it is just damn fun to mess around with low tech equipment, processes, and chemistry. In this day of automated this and computerized that, it is refreshing to participate in something that can be unpredictable, messy, and so dependent upon the skill of a human being, yet when done well produces a result superior to the best that computers can achieve.

Well said, Chuck! My sentiments exactly.

Frank Petronio · May 4, 2005

I looked into this a year ago, when I was considering buying Gowland Cameras, as Peter is getting pretty far along. I thought moving it to Rochester would be logical because there are alot of ex-Kodak machinists and camera people to sub-contract the production.

Go for it. My numbers didn't add up.

While I believe that there are digi-cams that have 4x5 quality, I doubt they will ever be affordable. The average professional photographer doesn't need more resolution than what the current Canon/Nikon DSLRs are providing, so I see little reason for the larger medium format chips to come down in price. The market is probably less than 50,000 medium format digicams, as many fence-sitters will opt for a high-end DSLR instead.

Since I think it is stupid to take a $20,000 camera outside, into the rain and dust of the real world, I will continue to happily make high resolution images with my shabby analog $1000 outfit.

As for manufacturing, I think the Leica analogy is a good one. There are so many good used Leicas out there (over a million?) that it seriously curtails the new market. What is left are wealthy collectors and people who want the very best. Somebody buys those $6000 Alpa 12s and custom made ULF cameras, but it is not a very large market.

The market is really soft for studio monorails that are not aimed at digital backs. You can find new Sinar Fs, entry level Linhof Ms, and basic Cambos for a song.

jimgalli · May 4, 2005

I believe we're seeing a temporary phenomenon driven by several key factors that won't be repeated. An age demographic might actually be more telling. How many of us were born between 1945 and 1960? I think we're seeing a baby boomer backlash. Folks beginning to get long in the tooth that are rebelling against our pop / plastic / pre-packaged / phony world by grasping at something of quality before "our time" is used up.

Add to this recipe 2 other phenomena. The fact that our parents generation of professional grade photography gear is no longer viable in a commercial world has thrown an entire generation (or 2 or 3!) of still useable gear on the market. Most of the first user generation is gone. What do you do with all this stuff. Add to that recipe EBAY and all of a sudden you have a flood of wonderful "gear" and a generation ready to take it at a cheap price and try to make a statement about who they are.

Interesting to me that when I began dabbling in Pt /Pd 3 years ago there weren't many others involved at all. In just 3 years that niche has exploded. Meanwhile the boomers that were getting up to speed on their parents generation 4X5's have decided en masse that 8X10 and larger cameras, and the resulting possibilities are where it's at. Suddenly you can get rediculous prices for 8X20's and 11X14's.

But if I'm right in my assessment, how long will the frenzy sustain itself? When I was growing up I remember vividly that the WW1 and great depression generation wanted to save a bit of their past and there weren't enough Model A Fords to go around. Whole industries of new parts became available. Clubs were formed. Fords were everywhere. 40 years have passed and that generation is largely gone. Model A's aren't a big deal anymore. I see parallels. What think ye?

John Kasaian · May 4, 2005

Righty-O, Paul! Those of us who don't live in the large photo meccas are used to mail ordering film and if you use graded fiber papers you've got to mail order those, too. If we think that paying for shipping is brutal just think of what it would be like if you were a sculptor and carrarra marble was your medium! ;-)

Nick Zentena · May 4, 2005

Personally I think many of the people looking at LF or having bought into it lately are younger then Jim's age range. Most are people that grew up with 35mm and never saw a working LF camera. Many rarely saw a MF camera.

Ebay has allowed an entry point for many. How many of the various low cost used camera would have just sat in closets for years without Ebay? I'm not sure I would have gambled $1000K on a new LF camera but being able to get a used one for $100 or so made it an easy gamble.

I actually see more older digital users. Some are the sort that bought the latest greatest 35mm camera. Had to have all the buzzwords. They're just going with the latest buzz.

photobackpacker · May 4, 2005

I have to agree with all of the sentiments but would truly love some hard numbers. As for the whys, IMHO, there are a number of possibilities that are tantalizing:

Darkroom work is tactile. You handle your end product and shape it with your very hands. John Sexton pointed this out in a seminar and it is very true.

LF is nostalgic. There is an appeal to using 100 year-old techniques to produce beauty. It connects me (however imperfectly) with the masters.

It is Human. When I rely on a machine, programmed by another to do things I cannot do - is it really my creation? When I can so easily modify reality, the serendepity of discovery is gone. How many beautiful subjects have been ruined by power lines or graffiti? When I can so easily change a sows ear into the facsimile of a silk purse, it cheapens the discovery of the true silk purse.

There is, for me, a classic beauty and mystique in the instrument (the camera). It, alone, identifies you as someone serious about your craft.

There is, for me, a real satisfaction that I struggle to master that instrument and that if I approach it casually, I will see that reflected in the mediocre results. If digital backs where 25$, I doubt people would put up with the humbling LF learning curve.

There is, for me, a risk - reward factor. When I trip the shutter, I put $ and time at risk. This forces me to focus, to ponder, to slow down to analyze and most importantly, to look for the beauty in my subject. That is salve for my soul.

One possible conclusion is that while the consumer trend pursues the photo-equivalent of fast-food, a profitable niche will grow. I am becoming convinced that this is the case.

argus · May 4, 2005

There's another factor that comes in in my case: aversion of sitting at the computer whole day AND evening.
If it weren't for that, I think I would have a D-cam right now.

Anyway... having my own darkroom for only 5 months, I'm really in to it.
(only 1 hour to go for the LF... )

G

Frank Petronio · May 4, 2005

Remember that all through the 70s and 80s, colleges graduated tens of thousands of photography majors (and many more took photo electives). Only a few percent work as photographers, but I bet a lot of them still consider themselves photographers.

Also, I think for a lot of people, they are more prosperous than ever before, so things like handmade wooden cameras are more accessiable than ever. I can't imagine a catalog photographer using an Ebony or a Phillips camera in a production studio, but obviously a lot of hobbiests are.

And finally, the art market is shifting towards photography. The current Business Week has an article about how LIVING photographers are actually getting painting-level prices for contemporary prints (several thousand). Thanks to those Germans like Gursky rehashing the cold landscapes that American MFA students did throughout the 70s and 80s, the market has finally arrived.

Steve Hamley · May 4, 2005

I suspect Jim Galli is correct, or correct to the extent of explaining the large-camera "bubble". However, I do see younger people shooting larger formats (mostly MF) and they are aware of and interested in LF.

I figure that some percentage of non-professional photographers start with small and/or medium format and eventually migrate to LF, but I wonder if that percentage is increasing or decreasing.

Steve

Nick Zentena · May 4, 2005

It may be the high dollar cameras like Ebony are going to an older market. But it wouldn't suprise me if alot of the Shen Hao 4x5s are going to a younger market. It also wouldn't suprise me if the number of Shen Hao cameras sold far out number the number of Ebonies.

Aggie · May 4, 2005

I was in a Dr's office yesterday afternoon, and quietly reading a Woman's Day magazine, which had an interesting article in it. I don't expect many on this forum read that magazine. The gist of the article was about the obsolencence of digital. The Author talked at the end of it, about how the best value was purchasing camera quipment, and learning how to use the traditional methods with film. They also suggested learning how to use LF cameras since they were the best value, and had the superior negatives when you were working in a darkroom. All this from a grocery store woman's magazine. Who'd a thunk it?

Jim Chinn · May 4, 2005

I think as more younger photographers and artists become aware of the creative potential of big cameras (8x10 and larger) with all types of processes the demand for big cameras will still be there. There will always be a certain element of people that will not want to use a computer, who will find value in the more hands on approach of "wet processes".

There is also the relationship of craft to results. As has been pointed out ad naseum in these posts, one can easily go out and buy a wonderful custom piece of furniture turned out by machines, but the demand for home wood working tools continues to be strong with machines available in every price range.

I have always felt that there is a desire in many people to create with a hands on approach towards process. I don't think that will change. LF provides that opportunity.

One way to keep LF going is to work to make others aware of its continuing validity as a creative medium, avaliablity of affordable equipment and materials. Another is to dispell myths about the difficulties of using big cameras. I think just the opposite. Using 5x7 or 8x10 opens up a world of options for working, especially eliminating the whole enalrging regimen with simple contact printing.

I am not going to worry about the ups and downs of film manufacturers anymore. As far as LF film in the future I think there is enough brain power on APUG to design emulsions and a coating system for small batches of film.
At this time it is simply not something in demand. It was done with 19th century technology well into the 20th century on glass plates and then polyester bases including panchromatic emulsions.

Don't buy into the myth that it can only be done by someone like Kodak, Ilford or Foma. That is 100% total BS.

I personally believe that when we are "forced" to create our own film and emulsions through very small custom mfgs, we will discover that the creative potential of designing emulsions and coatings has barely been touched.

Ian Grant · May 4, 2005

Well Nick I hate to admit I'm probably of the "older market" but I've now bought 2 LF cameras in the past 5 months, a 10x8 Agfa Ansco for myself and today's arrival a Cambo/Calumet Cadet for my 19 year old niece.

Looking on Ebay UK as I write there are some superb LF cameras and lenses on offer, the market is buoyant but prices are well down compared to 5 or 10 years ago as most professionals have gone digital., and its mainly unused equipment thats being solds off. While the cameras will go back into use film usage will be far less

I actually found that US Ebay's prices were even lower (due to very avantageous exchange rates) and so bought my 10x8 from Portland, Maine, getting a great camera at a reasonable price despite the high shipping costs & import tax and VAT on the final price and shipping, (21.5% extra).

Perhaps it's also important to add that there is not the same tradition for field cameras here in the UK, we pioneered the early market with companies like Lancaster, Sanderson & Thornton Pickard, and lens manucaturers like Ross, Wray & Cooke (Taylor Hobson). Then we lost our history . . . . .

But not quite, Gandolfi are still manufacturing with a waiting list, & Cooke have returned to LF lenses.

There is a LF revival.

Ian

Nick Zentena said:
It may be the high dollar cameras like Ebony are going to an older market. But it wouldn't suprise me if alot of the Shen Hao 4x5s are going to a younger market. It also wouldn't suprise me if the number of Shen Hao cameras sold far out number the number of Ebonies.

Whats happening with the LF market?

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Whats happening with the LF market?

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