What zone is "medium gray" ?

Gerald C Koch

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My first time through "The Negative" was both confusing and illuminating. I agree ZS books are helpful and should be read, but they don't necessarily make sense the first time or two through.

There are good and bad books on the zone system. The Adam's books are better than some which read more like Zen than photography. But what you need to know is there. Don't try to digest a book as a whole, only when you felly understand a section should you go on to the next.
 

markbarendt

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Yes, it is something that needs to be chewed on.
 

kelvinleung

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My understand to the zone system is that it actually divide the entire range of brightness film can capture into different zones. So we spot meter a caucasian's cheek with a spot meter, under that lighting condition, that is reading you should put in zone VI. Because caucasian's face a light. Whereas if I have an asian in the frame, that cheek reading should be in zone IV. If it's an African, it should be in Zone III.

That is just a basic guideline when you do exposure check. Like others point out, it really depends on the film characteristics and the feel you want to get. Nothing better to try shoot and log down the settings for review. I usually don't ask questions before I tried the experiment because I won't retain the information in my mind without trying it myself.
 

markbarendt

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My understand to the zone system is that it actually divide the entire range of brightness film can capture into different zones.

Not quite.

The zone system was designed to help translate the Scene Brightness Range (SBR) you want to print from the real world to what will print easily or "straight" onto say grade 2 paper.

Adams would have used the word visualize where I used translate. When looking at the scene Adams would visualize (decide) what he wanted pure black-zone 0, shadow with detail-zone III, white with detail-zone 8, and what he wanted pure white, zone X.

The black point Adams would choose in the scene (zone-0) translates to black on paper (zone-0), each zone from the scene translates in turn directly to the corresponding zone on paper. That is the essence of the zone system.

With regard to negatives, they almost always have more "range" or latitude or usable details (whatever you want to call it) out side the printable "zones" or straight print range. To say this in mathematic terms, the printable range (all the zones) are a subset of the film's range. It is very possible for a film to have twice the range than it needs to cover the zones.

Two side notes:

We can get at the extra info/extra film range by using burn or dodge techniques.

And the classic placement of a Caucasian face tone in Zone VI isn't a given. For a dark scene you may want to print darker, for a bright scene, brighter.
 

DREW WILEY

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There were multiple generations of successful studio photographers who didn't use the Zone System.
In fact, some of the leading pro photo schools thought it was just a quirk for AA and the "rocks and
trees" crowd. Rather, the lighting ratio in the studio was adjusted to the range of the film, and if needed a gray card was put in the scene or a Polaroid preview used. A simple outdoor trick was to
read the palm of your hand for Caucasian skintone. Of course, spot metering and some greater degree of sophistication in your exposure model would be a more flexible system. And the Zone System doesn't need to become complicated. It's not a religion.
 

markbarendt

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Cute comment about the rocks and trees crowd, I personally lean toward the portraitists idea of pegging the mid-tones too.

I would say though that the studios, like the rocks and trees crowd, adjusted their systems, including lighting, film choice and development not to get a pretty negative, but to get a pretty print.

The paper's range is what matters.
 

c6h6o3

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The paper's range is what matters.

AMEN! The paper's range is much smaller than the film's. You need to compress the range on the negative in order to fit that of the paper.
 
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Why the question about not giving +1 to spot metering a person's cheek? And how is "middle grey" important for that?

If the spot meter is calibrated correctly (baseline calibration = variation from metered reading as dictated by user testing; or filter factor compensation) it should not need any additional 'throw': spot metering takes skill based on experience; obviously here in this thread so many people have so many variations on what to do, but a bigger problem exists: it is not practical to use the Zone System with small format roll film. It might be approachable with multiple formats of film/backs in e.g. 35mm and MF with a fairly arduous amount of darkroom labour and/or cost and a lot of knowledge. The problem is the brightness range of scenes that vary greatly and if exposures are carried out at different times one brings into question, "what's the point of this?" as you will simply end up with stack upon stack of perplexing, frustrating and nondirectional results. Basics first would be just to spot meter, expose, record notes, then examine the negs then repeat the process until you (not APUG) are happy with the results. There is a lot of latitude in B&W film and I would be inclined to just let the [35mm] camera do the metering for you (if it is a modern era camera with multipattern/evaluative metering, which by design is formulated around the Zone System), with judicious intervention of ad hoc exposure compensation based on actual shooting experience. An all manual camera of course allows you complete freedom to meter the scene intricately and this is what I think you might have (correct me if I'm wrong).

The AA books are a good read, but also very demanding in terms of learning curve. I suggest leaving the Zone System to the larger format where it allows for full creative expression in the darkroom at the print stage.
 

Bill Burk

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I believe OP heard that you are supposed to spotmeter a person's cheek and then give +1 but OP failed to follow that advice (which "underexposed" one stop). It didn't matter.

Yes, latitude of black and white film makes that possible. But the take-away from the experience shouldn't be "ok to forget the +1"

You are supposed to open up 1 stop. You can't always get away with underexposing 1 stop... So you shouldn't set yourself up to make under exposure errors a habit.
 

markbarendt

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but a bigger problem exists: it is not practical to use the Zone System with small format roll film.

Oh, horse feathers.

Sure, archetypical application of the ZS is/was for scenes "as found" with sheet film processed to match, but so what. ZS principles work just fine in any situation with a little bit of imagination and understanding. The whole system isn't required for success, even Adams offered advice for use with roll film and modern VC papers make print contrast adjustment a breeze for most shots.

Placement of one specific zone, like a face in a given zone, is about the easiest "part" of the ZS to cherry pick and quite useful.

Instead of shooting one or two sheets for a given situation, I just shoot a whole roll in each situation where ever specific development is needed. This is one reason I like to roll my own shorter rolls or shoot Medium Format.

There are lots of other options too.

The Zone System works great with artificially controlled scene contrast and subject placement, which is a very typical situation for many portraits.

In a studio every part of the scene is "zonable" so that they fall straight onto the paper where we want them.

In the wild the background can be "classically" zoned, exposure and development then chosen to match, just as Adams might have. Then the lighting for the sitter in front of that scene can be scrimmed or augmented to place them perfectly.

The intellectual magic of the ZS can be applied to any shot, it is simply that there is a real measurable "connection" of the zones in the scene to the zones that will print easily.
 

Chan Tran

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I think the one thing that the OP didn't see is that in camera exposure only influence the negative density. With a certain density on the negative one can render it as light or as dark as he/she wants when making a print. If I were to print some one negative then regardless of the density of the person skin tones I would try to make it look as close to real skin tone as possible on the print that is to lighten up underexposed neg and print it darker on the overexposed negative.
 

benjiboy

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"What Zone is mid grey ?, why does everyone these days think that they can learn everything off the internet without going to the expense of buying a book on the subject, and putting in the effort to read study and understand it.
 

baachitraka

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It a joy to read those books and they are not that expensive considering the time spent on the internet. ;-) Or better, attend a workshop. The experience you gather may be invaluable.
 

markbarendt

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"What Zone is mid grey ?, why does everyone these days think that they can learn everything off the internet without going to the expense of buying a book on the subject, and putting in the effort to read study and understand it.

There are two questions there.

Part 1 - Because we can learn almost everything off the Internet, we are no longer held hostage to books.

Part 2 - Because the context Adams and others ZS gurus taught in no longer exists, except by choice.

Yes the basic principles still apply but the materials and tools have changed, the old books need an updating they don't seem to be getting.
 

benjiboy

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There are plenty of modern books about The Zone System even as applied to digital photography just look on Amazon, and I find the idea of scholarship described as being "held hostage to books" ludicrous in the extreme.
 
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batwister

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Part 2 - Because the context Adams and others ZS gurus taught in no longer exists, except by choice.

Yes the basic principles still apply but the materials and tools have changed, the old books need an updating they don't seem to be getting.

I agree. The books still have the authority on the subject, but to get at the real crux of all the information contained requires an investment of time and thought that isn't really necessary today. There are updated books dealing with the zone system which appropriately tackle its creative application, in today's context of 'getting results'. But, it definitely is a choice to invest in them, when you could be learning a lot more about yourself, practically. It's dangerous to be competitive in photography, especially as a hobbyist, but while you're pouring over those books, just remember that somebody else is out making great pictures, simply with a good intuition about tonality. They've likely spent more time looking at and making photographs than reading manuals. If you're planning on becoming a teacher or leading printing workshops, reading and re-reading Adams' books is definitely advantageous.
 

benjiboy

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I just hope that I never employ an electrician to rewire my house who learned his trade on the internet.
 

batwister

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I just hope that I never employ an electrician to rewire my house who learned his trade on the internet.

Photography, unlike loose wires, isn't necessarily a life or death situation!
 

markbarendt

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It is not scholarship that it at issue.

The methods we get the info we study from and the availability of the teachers and peers we can learn from have radically changed.

Right or wrong, these changes are rapidly displacing books in both form and preference by the masses.
 

benjiboy

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"The masses" thought National Socialism, and The Spice Girls were great , ever hear the expression "nobody ever went broke underestimating the tastes of the general public".
What you get on the internet are opinions, and opinions are like ass holes everyone's got one. If you need hard reliable information in a concise, reasoned and comprehensive form written by an author who knows the subject well enough to write a book about it that publishers,who are hard headed business men, are willing to publish, buy it rather than relying on hearsay on the internet.
 
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markbarendt

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Don't be dis'n my girls.

Girl Power!
 

DREW WILEY

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Now that we've got the internet, does anyone still know how to read? And now with texting via thumbs and fender benders on the freeway, does anyone know any words longer than three letters
each? Gosh, the Zone System is pretty damn elementary, whether one needs it or not. And not all
black and white films have a lot of latitude, esp in the shadows. On a rainy day walk I might very
well estimate values using Delta 3200 in a Nikon, or use rapid thru-the-lens metering. But in the
same camera holding TMY, I'll spot meter every time. Of course, using the 8x10 one has the simple
choice between careful metering or being rich enough to waste film that size.
 
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