What you know about this camera?

marciofs · Aug 18, 2016

I am not sure about the filme size. It seems to be from the time of glass plate. But I am looking for film negative holders for this camera. Would you help me find them?

I got it as a gift and it looks good and working smooth.

Ian Grant · Aug 18, 2016

Measure the ground glass screen. It looks bigger than 9x12, so check, however on second thoughts it's maybe just perspective - if that's a 135mm (13,5cm) lens then it's definitely a 9x12 camera. You need plate holders and then film sheath inserts to allow cut film use. Fomafoto are good for these continental films sizes.

It is pre-WWII and there were many manufacturers most looking very similar. What you need to be aware of is the edges of the plate holders weren't standard so (there was a url link here which no longer exists).

Ian

marciofs · Aug 18, 2016

Thank you Ian,

Its is 11x9cm or 4,5x3,5in.

I know there are some people manufacturing large format cameras now a days. Do you think I can find film holders that fit in my camera from them? Or the design and sizes from pre war cameras are different from the ones made afterwards and today?

Ian Grant · Aug 18, 2016

It shoule be 9x12, I doubt quater plate would ever have been sold in Germany/Continental Europe they were made for export to the UK. There's plenty of plate holders available once you know what edge fitting it takes, the film sheath adapters are standard. They are much easier to find in Geramnay than here in the UK.

Essentially this style of mainly German plate camera used metal single sided plate holder, most cameras only have front rise/fall. The incompatability between all makes did become more rational in the 30's with fewer variations, This was a major prob;em and after WWII new International standards were agrred, we had a similar issues in the UK, and almost all manufacturers moved to the film/plate holders sizes we have today. So a 9x12 holder has the same outside dimensions as 5x4 holders, registration is the same, it's similar with larger sizes. Essentially these were sizes in use in the US since the early 19900's.

After WWII most of the German camera industry was in ruins and Linhof dominated, their Technika cameras were way in adavance of pre warcompetitors, in terms of movements etc, but there was also a shifte to miniature formats (120, 35mm etc) before WWII in Europe and that accelerated after WWII with most German companies concentrating in this area.

Let me have the outside dimensions of the camera body just length & width , depth is not important. then I'll compare to my 9x12 cameras tomorrow. Some cameras could use a 9x12 or Quarter plate focus back.

Ian

marciofs · Aug 18, 2016

Thank you again Ian,

The body size is 6x4,5 in
or 11,5x16 cm

Ian Grant · Aug 19, 2016

Those measurements are consistent with it being a 9x12 camera, it's just a few mm larger than my Rodenstock (Welta) 9x12 camera.

Now you need to idenify what holders fit, it would be useful to try and work out who made the camera. Schneider were quite a small lens manufacturer they really only expanded after Nagel split from Zeiss Ikon in 1928. Intially he used Schneider lenses on his cameras, I guess he and Zeiss weren't on good terms, his works only used Zeiss lenses again after being bought by Kodak.

Aside from Nagel only a few companies used Schneider lenses. First get a rough date of manufacture from the lens serial number, looking at the shutter though it's probably pre 1930, I have a later version of the same Gauthier shutter and the Rodenstock lens SN dates it between 1920-30 (probably closer to 1927).

Makes I've seen with Schneider lenses are Nagel, Zeca, Zodel (Wallace and Heaton but almost certainly re-badged) and Voigtlander (but only with Xenars) but there may well be others. You need to look at and compare things like the two side arms that control folding, the front standard and it's controls, these are the best indicators, It tooke me 8 years to identify who actually made my Rodenstock camera and it was only when some came with his Welta to try some plate holder that I discoverd the cameras were identical.

I've given you some ideas, let me know more details of the lens.

Ian

LAG · Aug 19, 2016

Excuse me

It's very hard to see the numbers/letters in that photo Marciofs, but i will say that the lens is (1919?) Schneider Kreuznach (Xenar?) F=13,5 cm f/5.5-36 (can't see the shutter ...) Some of the those days cameras had their trademark recorded on the leather holder (or a hidden small plate), have you checked it? ... perhaps. If there is no other sign, it's hard to tell. Could be a Voigtlander Vag 9x12 (1926)?

All the 9x12 cameras i own (3) have different plate holders sizes ...

Thanks for the above link Ian

Ian Grant · Aug 19, 2016

Tht's an Ibso shutter, made between 1908-1926, it's similar in some ways to a Compound as it's pneumatic but is self cocking. However the same source says the Ibso was replaced by the Ibsor which was made between 1913 and 1935. Either way it's 1926 or earlier which rules out Nagel.

Ian

marciofs · Aug 19, 2016

Thank you a lot Ian,

The brand is "Zeca" (Zeh-Camera-Fabrik ???).
http://www.photoethnography.com/ClassicCameras/index-frameset.html?Zeca.html~mainFrame

The lens is a Xenar f5,5 - 135mm

I got this info in an other forum:

the Zeca Duplo. The Duplo used 9 x 12 cm plate.
I don't know this particular model. Zeca ("Paul Zeh Kamerawerk, Dresden") made several plate cameras. This one might be around 1928.

From German forums I get that you can use the Zeca with plates, sheet film and film holders. They often mention Plaubel/Rada roll film holders.

I will try to find holders in my city because baying on ebay I will not be able to see if what I fins fits my camera. But I am crazy looking forwards to shoot with it.

Ian Grant · Aug 19, 2016

Is it definitely an f5.5 Xenar ? If so it's an interesting lens, I have a rare f5.3 165mm CZJ Tessar these are higher quality in terms of overall sharpness compared to the more common f4.5 Xenars and Tessars but not as slow as the highest quality f6.3 Tessars.

A few years ago I tried to identify a few of my 9x12 cameras, I made a list of those for sale on Ebay - make, model, lens, shutter and that's how I narrowed your camera to possibly being a Zeca . I think the Zodel (wallace & Heaton here in the UK) 9x12 cameras were re-badged Zecas, re-badging was very coomon before WWII.

If you can PM or email photos of the camera back with the focus screen holder removed and the reverse side of the back as well I may be able to help with the holders you need.

I have quite a few Rada and Rollex 6x9 roll film backs for 9x12 cameras(pre WWII), after WWII Plaubel owned Rada and Linhof Rollex. One Rada back is still in its original water damaged box. I suspect Duplo is referring to the bellows double extension, usual for better 9x12 cameras only the cheapest were single and very few triple, that's extension compared to the focal length, so dounle focusses to 1:1, triple is only found where lenses are interchangeable.

Ian

marciofs · Aug 19, 2016

Ian Grant said:
Is it definitely an f5.5 Xenar ? If so it's an interesting lens, I have a rare f5.3 165mm CZJ Tessar these are higher quality in terms of overall sharpness compared to the more common f4.5 Xenars and Tessars but not as slow as the highest quality f6.3 Tessars.

A few years ago I tried to identify a few of my 9x12 cameras, I made a list of those for sale on Ebay - make, model, lens, shutter and that's how I narrowed your camera to possibly being a Zeca . I think the Zodel (wallace & Heaton here in the UK) 9x12 cameras were re-badged Zecas, re-badging was very coomon before WWII.

If you can PM or email photos of the camera back with the focus screen holder removed and the reverse side of the back as well I may be able to help with the holders you need.

I have quite a few Rada and Rollex 6x9 roll film backs for 9x12 cameras(pre WWII), after WWII Plaubel owned Rada and Linhof Rollex. One Rada back is still in its original water damaged box. I suspect Duplo is referring to the bellows double extension, usual for better 9x12 cameras only the cheapest were single and very few triple, that's extension compared to the focal length, so dounle focusses to 1:1, triple is only found where lenses are interchangeable.

Ian

See if these are the images you are asking:

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If you have at least one film holder to sell to me I would be very happy.

marciofs · Aug 19, 2016

A photo of the lens:

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Ian Grant · Aug 20, 2016

Thanks, the Vade Mecum mentions the Xenar f5.5 and says it's not been seen so might be scarce, so rather like my Tessar f5.3 not listed in the books on Zeiss lens production. So a 1928 SN lens in an older shutter, but that's not unusual as lens cells and paricularly shutters can be held in stock at a manufacturers

It's hard to tell which of these plate holders fit your camera, the problem is the width of the lip, overall lengths etc differ, something like N or P this listing doesn't mention Zeca, but is pre the Zeiss Ikon merger of 1926. Usually these plate holders were sold in threes you might be lucky because after the Zeiss Ikon merger the number of variations dropped.

Ian

marciofs · Aug 20, 2016

It looks like it will be hard to find out.
I am think about trying to find those people who manufacture handmade large format cameras, and ask them to make holders for my camera. I may find one of them willing to do it, I hope.

I was searching in the internet and it seems Voigtlander film holders would fit if it wasn't a bit longer:

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ced · Aug 20, 2016

Marcio, Nice camera! Try these guys, I am sure they have several.
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https://www.facebook.com/studiobaxton/

LAG · Aug 20, 2016

Now we can see much better the lens & shutter (partially), just like I said the Schneider Lens is from 1919 and the Shutter is a Gauthier just like Ian Grant assured before (an Ibso BT 1/100 model 1908).

Happy (holder) hunting! and thanks ced for the "Baxton link"

Ian Grant · Aug 21, 2016

The serial number of the lens show 1928 according to Schneider themselves.

MArcio, these plate holders and film inserts arev quite eassy to find, it just takes patience, I've had no problems finding them for all my 9x12 cameras which luckily are mostly the same fit, probably similar to yours. I've sold the spares on to members of this forum, I still have quite a large number left but unfortunately of the wrong edge types. They should be about 10-12 euros for 3 but some sellers want too much.

I'll double check twopublications to see if they list holders for Zeca, should say which other cameras may take the same holders.

Ian

LAG · Aug 21, 2016

Ian Grant said:
The serial number of the lens show 1928 according to Schneider themselves.

I forgot to say those Years (1919 / 1908) were the first on production, not the specific case. I thought it was no necessary. My fault, i'm sorry!

marciofs · Aug 21, 2016

Ian Grant said:
The serial number of the lens show 1928 according to Schneider themselves.

MArcio, these plate holders and film inserts arev quite eassy to find, it just takes patience, I've had no problems finding them for all my 9x12 cameras which luckily are mostly the same fit, probably similar to yours. I've sold the spares on to members of this forum, I still have quite a large number left but unfortunately of the wrong edge types. They should be about 10-12 euros for 3 but some sellers want too much.

I'll double check twopublications to see if they list holders for Zeca, should say which other cameras may take the same holders.

Ian

I appreciate all the help Ian.
Thank you very much.

David A. Goldfarb · Aug 22, 2016

(Off topic content about 9x12 processing moved to (there was a url link here which no longer exists) ).

What you know about this camera?

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