What would happen if you crossprocessed in K-14?

[Crysist]

This is purely a hypothetical, of course.

First, are the traits - the "look" - associated with Kodachrome caused by the film itself if the dyes are present in the film itself? Or is it just by the development, when they are added? Or a combination of both?

Kodachrome is merely a black and white film with some layers separated by filters; compared to C41 and E6 films which include the dye couplers. But they otherwise share the layers with different filters separating "ordinary" silver halides (minus whatever sensitizers or other stuff are present).

And if it's less to do with the film, then what would happen if you tried to develop a color negative or E6 color positive film in K-14? Those films are separated into different "records" all the same with filters, so unless the dye couplers wouldn't like the K-14 process somehow, what might happen if you put one of those films through the K-14 process?

I imagine they're tuned quite different, but again if you set aside the existing couplers and form the respective dyes additively in the appropriate layers like in K-14, would you get something? Something that looks right? Do we know how might it differ?

This is mainly me wondering what's the essence of this process that is responsible for its look. Are Kodachrome films quite similar to existing films and look unique just through the unique development, or did they really have some special sauce in the film itself? (besides lacking couplers)

 

[cmacd123]

K-14 starts as a typical reversal process with a B&W developer. then the front and back are indicvidually re-exposed and developed in a developer that also adds dyes. the middle layer is developed with a fogging developer that also creates the dye for the middle layer, then all the silver is removed.
if you were to put a conventional colour film through that it is Unlikly that the couplers would know what to do. and they prossibly would contaminate the entire processing machine. best case with a B&W film you MIGHT get a positive dye image in some colour. posibly with exteme fogging or staing from the OTHER two colour development stages.

Cross Processing E6 with C41 or ECN2 or a repleted conminaton (c-41 in e6 , or ECN2 in E6, or ecn2 in C41, or C41in ecn2) is at least using colour couplers that are vaguely related to the Native process. note that in many cases when Mixing E6 witha negative process, the colour are known to be "Unreal"

 

[MattKing]

If you asked me 50 years ago, I could have just asked my Dad to ask his colleagues what would happen. My Dad could probably have shared what steps the lab took to make sure that no C41 or E6 film snuck its way in amongst the Kodachrome.
As the processing machine developed a mile long piece of spliced together customer film at a time - with attached mile long leader and mile long trailer - it may be that the process could withstand the contamination from a single roll, but I expect that no one would have been happy!

 

[_T_]

The answer to the underlying question is that the look of kodachrome is dependent on both the design of the film and the design of the chemistry used to process it. They are not independent.

 

[Romanko]

This is mainly me wondering what's the essence of this process that is responsible for its look.

The "look" is an intricate interaction of the following components:
1. spectral sensitivity of film emulsion layers;
2. characteristic curves of each layer (expressed as the density of dyes vs. exposure);
3. spectral transmission characteristics of the dyes formed in the layers.

1 and 3 are the properties of the film. 2 is a combination of the film and the developing process.

If you are considering replicating the "Kodachrome look" the most practical approach would be to use tri-chrome and expose three sheets of negative film through a set of filters matching the spectral sensitivity of the emulsion layers (problematic); developing the film to a positive (reversal); projecting the images through a different set of filters matching the dyes transmission properties (again, problematic). Development needs to be tightly controlled to achieve the desired characteristic curves (less problematic but requires a lot of experimentation).

If tri-chrome sounds difficult, this approach is three orders of magnitude more so. If you read that far you probably understand why replicating Kodachrome is such a difficult task and why so few people succeeded in making it work. Our member Stephen Frizza is one of such heroes.

 

[Romanko]

I imagine they're tuned quite different, but again if you set aside the existing couplers and form the respective dyes additively in the appropriate layers like in K-14, would you get something? Something that looks right? Do we know how might it differ?

There is no physically realizable way to "set aside the existing couplers". At least at the current level of human technology. Would you get something if you travel back in time and manage to develop E6 or C-41 film by K-14? Yes. The film is most likely to respond to exposure and developing by forming some weird combination of dyes in the layers. Will that look right? No. Do we know how might it differ? Yes, drastically.

 

[geirtbr]

I have been thinking about cross processing multigrade rc paper in k14-like chemistry (color developer with color coupler). You can reexpose the two layers separately (with magenta and yellow from the enlarger), and thus develop two separate shades (or, for example, one black and white and the other with a colour shade). No idea if it would work, but certainly something I want to try when I look into k14 chemistry more closely.

 

[Yezishu]

Maybe you can expose the same objects three times onto three transparent B/W negatives (using different filters), then color each one with a different color toner (such as the now-discontinued Colorvir toners), bleach, and finally stack them together for viewing. K14 is a more complex version of this process...