What to watch out for in a Nikon S series?

[Donald Qualls]

I've got two Kiev 4 bodies; one with major frame spacing issues, the other with a slow shutter, and there seem to be few if any repairers in the USA who'll work on Soviet cameras (and I'm reluctant to send a camera to Ukraine for service at this time, much as I'd like to support Oleg). I have low confidence in finding another Kiev that's any better; the older ones are more worn, and the newer ones less well built (from what I've read). I may attempt to tighten up the advance clutch in the one with good shutter, but I don't have a lot of confidence getting into this camera (and yes, I have a link to the Wayback Machine copy of Kiev Survival Site).

It looks like the solution (since I overall like the Contax system and have some glass already) is to get another Contax mount camera, with the NIkon S series at the top of the list.

These are old cameras, too, though -- and very unfamiliar to me. What should I watch out for in shopping for one at the lower end of the price range, and is there another good (less expensive) alternative that takes Contax rangefinder lenses?

 

[ntenny]

You know about the focussing difference, right? Your long and/or fast Contax lenses won’t focus accurately on a Nikon body.

https://www.cameraquest.com/NRF-Contax.htm

-NT

 

[Donald Qualls]

I don't own any actual Contax lenses, but this probably also applies to Soviet-made Contax mount lenses (which were made on Zeiss equipment transported to near Kyiv as war reparations). I have the Jupiter-8 (50 mm f/2), Jupiter-11 (135 mm f/4) and Jupiter-12 (35 mm f/2.8); I'm also much more likely to buy any additional lenses (like an 80-85 mm) in the Jupiter, Industar, or Helios names than actual Contax, Nikon, etc.

I also have a Contax II body with a worse shutter than my slow Kiev 4, but getting that fixed is well out of my budget (probably on both time and money).

Am I missing any other Contax rangefinder mount bodies?

 

[GRHazelton]

Do consider a Contax IIa. They are available used, and can be CLA'd by several shops here in the states. Advance Camera in Portland Oregeon CLA'd mine at a reasonalbe cost. There is a recent thead discussing this.

Contax IIA shutter problem at 1/1250​

The IIa is beautifully made, but the VF is no where as nice as the Nikon S2 and the SP.

 

[ntenny]

Well, there’s the Bessa-R2C, but it’s decidedly pricey—KEH currently has one for a cool US$1,455! Other than that, Zeiss, and Kiev, I don’t think there are any true Contax-mount bodies.

Igor’s currently has about four Contax IIIa bodies that claim recent CLAs, at prices I’d describe as reasonable—seems like no more than you’d pay for a Nikon body. (I’ve only bought antiquated LF stuff from them, so I can’t vouch for their grading of more complex mechanical-age pieces.). I’ve also had good results with a Contax CLA from Advance Camera.

The Jupiter-12 by all accounts will not work on a postwar body or the R2C. I bought a Kiev body partly as a platform for that lens (the light leak was free).

-NT

 

[Donald Qualls]

The Jupiter-12 by all accounts will not work on a postwar body or the R2C.

And that's why I haven't wanted to get a IIa or IIIa. I've got two Jupiter-12, one with really horrific scratches on the rear element -- quite possibly not from the shutter curtain of a post-War Contax, but why take the chance?

I'll see where things stand with Advance Camera; if I could get the Contax II up to snuff, I could quit worrying about the Kiev bodies -- and being a pre-War model, it should be okay with the J-12.

Edit: Uh-oh. My browser pre-filled most of my information on their quote request form; I may have asked them this before (potentially told they can't service a pre-War Contax).

 

[madNbad]

And that's why I haven't wanted to get a IIa or IIIa. I've got two Jupiter-12, one with really horrific scratches on the rear element -- quite possibly not from the shutter curtain of a post-War Contax, but why take the chance?

I'll see where things stand with Advance Camera; if I could get the Contax II up to snuff, I could quit worrying about the Kiev bodies -- and being a pre-War model, it should be okay with the J-12.

Edit: Uh-oh. My browser pre-filled most of my information on their quote request form; I may have asked them this before (potentially told they can't service a pre-War Contax).

I live a couple of miles from Advance and have done a lot of business with them and know they won't work on pre war Contax camera. I was there one day when one of the employee's brought out a pristine pair of the original Contax. He told me the biggest problem with repairing them was a limited amount of parts, difficult to work on and there was no guarantee of how long they would continue to work if repaired.

 

[flavio81]

I've got two Kiev 4 bodies; one with major frame spacing issues, the other with a slow shutter, and there seem to be few if any repairers in the USA who'll work on Soviet cameras (and I'm reluctant to send a camera to Ukraine for service at this time, much as I'd like to support Oleg). I have low confidence in finding another Kiev that's any better; the older ones are more worn, and the newer ones less well built (from what I've read). I may attempt to tighten up the advance clutch in the one with good shutter, but I don't have a lot of confidence getting into this camera (and yes, I have a link to the Wayback Machine copy of Kiev Survival Site).

It looks like the solution (since I overall like the Contax system and have some glass already) is to get another Contax mount camera, with the NIkon S series at the top of the list.

These are old cameras, too, though -- and very unfamiliar to me. What should I watch out for in shopping for one at the lower end of the price range, and is there another good (less expensive) alternative that takes Contax rangefinder lenses?

This week i have been working on a 1960 Kiev rangefinder and it's the machine of the devil. I was less than impressed with the materials quality. Yesterday i simply called it off -- the camera goes straight to the parts bin.

Note that i'm a Contax IIa/IIIa user and i'm happy with these machines, both using them and servicing them.

What you should know is that the Nikon RF mount and the Contax/Kiev RF mount are slightly incompatible, thus lenses from one system won't focus accurately on the other system. They're the same mount but the flange focal distance is specified a bit different, this link explains it perfectly. This means that any lens can be converted to the other system by simply adjusting the lens-block-to-lens-mount distance, which on some lenses is trivially easy to do (for a camera tech, or even for a DIYer with a ground glass to put on the film plane). But don't tell anyone so prices stay low.

The other altenative is to buy a Contax -> M39 adapter, although they're a bit expensive, and i'm not sure if they are rangefinder-coupled.

 

[Donald Qualls]

The other altenative is to buy a Contax -> M39 adapter,

That hadn't even occurred to me. Then I could grab a Fed or Zorki and future lenses could be L39... Though I recall one or the other of those having some focus compatibility issues, too. And they'll be cloth shutter curtains (the metal curtains, impervious to sunlight burns, are one of the cool things about the Contax design). No, not interested in actual Leica, though a Canon might be attractive. Are any of the LTM cameras equipped with metal shutters?

 

[flavio81]

That hadn't even occurred to me. Then I could grab a Fed or Zorki and future lenses could be L39... Though I recall one or the other of those having some focus compatibility issues, too. And they'll be cloth shutter curtains (the metal curtains, impervious to sunlight burns, are one of the cool things about the Contax design). No, not interested in actual Leica, though a Canon might be attractive. Are any of the LTM cameras equipped with metal shutters?

I don't like Fed or Zorkis, really. And leicas are way overpriced.

As for the LTM cameras, i think most have cloth shutters except for maybe the latest Voigtlander made-in-japan cameras.

As for the focus compatiblity issues, my experience (as a camera tech) is that if you use russian lenses, you MUST check if the focus is achieved correctly at the film plane. Many times the focus hasn't been set correct. Fortunately, on lenses like the Jupiter-8 (contax mount) or Helios-103 (ditto) the recalibration is easy and can be done in minutes.

The other problem that is left is that some of them don't have the exact, specified focal length. This means that the rangefinder might focus correctly (and thus focus the very same point correctly into the image plane too) at infinity but it will be slightly off at close distances, or viceversa. This can be corrected on some lenses but it's not a quick process, being trial-and-error. And of course, the error isn't too important if you're using the lens stopped-down.

Now, any Zorki camera (and Fed) cameras have a keel-shaped rangefinder cam. This cam can be repostioned, with pliers, to compensate for lens' focal lengh errors. But then your camera would be 100% correct with only one specific lens.

 

[ntenny]

The Bessa-R has a metal shutter and is a pretty good basic M39 camera with modern metering and shutter. The body is kind of plasticky, and the rangefinder base is on the small side, but I found it to be OK for practical use. It apparently won’t take the Jupiter-12 either, though.

-NT

 

[Huss]

The Contax-M39 adapters are not rangefinder coupled.

A Nikon S2 is a very nice camera and can be had relatively cheaply. It also seems to have a brighter/less faded RF patch than the later S3 and SPs. The upside is the downside depending your POV - that excellent VF only has 50mm frame lines.

 

[Donald Qualls]

Bessa-R is spendy, too, by my standards. Saw a nice looking Bessa-L on KEH at a reasonable looking price -- then realized it has neither RF nor viewfinder.

I do see some Contax to L39 mount adapters that at least appear to intend to couple the RF -- but on eBay it's hard to be certain.

And of course the S2 has the same issue with Contax mount lenses as all the other Nikon RF bodies. If I want a fixed lens, I'll use one of my several fixed-lens rangefinders (two Canonets, a Petri 7s, Signet, maybe one other I'm not remembering). Or one of my RF folders, 35 mm up to 6x9...

 

[reddesert]

There are nominal rangefinder issues between:
- Contax mount: (Contax, Kiev) vs Nikon
- L39 mount: (Leica, Canon, etc) vs (FED, Zorki)
Confusing how the FSU and Japan-made cameras wound up on opposite sides of the calibration between the two systems. The size of these RF issues should increase as the square of focal length: it should be pretty severe for telephotos, probably an issue for a fast 50mm used wide open, and unlikely to matter for a wide angle or a 50mm stopped down. This is partly based on some calculations I made; testing it for real requires some care and calibrating all the RFs beforehand.

That said, if you did get a Nikon, proper Nikon 135mm lenses are relatively inexpensive. The shorter focal lengths are fairly expensive.

I have a Nikon S (early 24x34mm model). It is a neat camera, but unfortunately mine has a shutter issue: the second curtain doesn't close until you lift your finger from the shutter button. Something's just a little out of adjustment in the mechanism that blocks and releases the second curtain. Anyway, the Nikon uses a shutter that is moderately simple, patterned after the Leica shutter and nothing like the Contax/Kiev. I also think that the Jupiter 35mm does mount onto the Nikon S without hitting anything. I don't have any later Nikons to examine.

Oh yeah, if you care about metal shutter curtains, later Canon rangefinders have steel shutter curtains. These usually have small dents but work regardless. IMO, the Canon 7 is the actual high point in RF usability per price.

 

[btaylor]

Yea, Canon 7, really great camera and relatively cheap. Great viewfinder with adjustable frame lines. Metal shutter, high build quality. The rangefinder coupled adapter for Contax to m39 is the Amedeo adapter. I went through this whole mess years ago- I had a set of quit nice FSU Contax mount lenses, but I now longer trusted my Kievs. I got a Canon 7- truly a top of the line rangefinder- for $120 I think. Then probably spent more than that on the adapter. Bottom line was it worked, but it was very fiddly and frankly too distracting to work well for me. So I sold the adapter and the 35mm Jupiter and kept my eyes out for a Zeiss post war 35mm, finally found one for a decent price which I mounted on a CLA’d Contax IIa. Love the Helios 50 and Jupiter 85mm f2 on the Contax. Bought some Canon and Nikon M39 lenses for the 7. All done.

 

[Paul Howell]

The Canon 7, 7s and 7z and Ps have stainless steel shutter curtains. A working 7 is a lot less than a Nikon, there are few shops that will work on them. Although the viewfinder patch is not as nice as a Leica, it has projected framelines lens from 35 to 135, only need a finder for 28 or wider. Ps are pretty reasonable, just add in the cost of a good CLA.

 

[flavio81]

The Canon 7, 7s and 7z and Ps have stainless steel shutter curtains. A working 7 is a lot less than a Nikon, there are few shops that will work on them. Although the viewfinder patch is not as nice as a Leica, it has projected framelines lens from 35 to 135, only need a finder for 28 or wider. Ps are pretty reasonable, just add in the cost of a good CLA.

However, and I say this as a diehard Canonista, it should be recognized that the Nikon S/S2/S3/SP are internally better built than the Canon 7 series. The earlier canons (like the VT) are better inside.

 

[Dismayed]

I shot a Contax IIa for several years. But I ended up selling it to buy a Nikon SP and a S2. The viewfinders on the Nikons are far superior, and the shutters are really reliable. Lenses are superb.

 

[Huss]

I shot a Contax IIa for several years. But I ended up selling it to buy a Nikon SP and a S2. The viewfinders on the Nikons are far superior, and the shutters are really reliable. Lenses are superb.

Ya I really liked my S2, much more than the much more expensive Bessa R3A and Zeiss Ikon ZM I also had. For me depending on budget (cheaper to more expensive) I'd recommend Fed 2 -> Canon P -> Nikon S2 -> Leica M.
(I've owned Zorkis, Kievs, Bessa, ZM, Contessa, Vitessa)

 

[__Brian]

The focus on the Zeiss and Russian lenses will be off on a Nikon Rangefinder. Unless.



Zeiss Opton 50mm F1.5, wide-open on the Nikon S2.

Contax mount 13.5cm lens on the same Nikon S2, wide-open.



Unless, you change the shims under the helical of the Nikon and then calibrate the Rangefinder for the Zeiss lenses.
It works,

The other option- buy an inexpensive adapter and an LTM camera.

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I bought two of these. These adapters have set screws to position the external mount with the lens. For use with my KMZ Jupiter-9 I had to file part of the mount, there are subtle differences -mostly tolerances- between the Contax and Jupiter lenses. Same tolerance problem- you might need to remove the chrome trim around the Jupiter bayonet mount and do some filing so it does not dig into the faceplate of the Nikon.

 

[__Brian]

On the Canon 7: My opinion, a very well made and tough camera. I bought a Canon 50/0.95 in mint condition with a Canon 7 as a rear lens cap. The looks of the Canon 7 probably scared people off. The Canon 7 had been dropped so hard that the solid glass prism sheared off NEAR the base, as in through the glass. I glued it back together, cleared the glass shards out of the body, and it worked fine except for the Selenium meter.

 

[Paul Howell]

The Nikon S might have better build quality, then again if you are looking for an occasional shooter a serviced Canon 7 or P will do quite well. If I was looking for a rangefinder daily shooter it would be Leica or Bessa, in my case as I shoot with longer lens and would want a rangefinder to couple with a 135mm then a Leica.

 

[__Brian]

The Canon P RF window is fairly close to the lens mount. Be careful with longer lenses with hoods as they will obstruct the RF window. No problem with a Nikon S Series camera using a 135 lens. Same with a Canon 7, no problem. I have an RF coupled Komura in LTM- have used on the Canon 7.

 

[flavio81]

the Jupiter-12 by all accounts will not work on a postwar body

How about this postwar Contax IIa with a Jupiter-12?

LOL... I'm cheating, mine is a modified body. Stock Contax iiia/iia can't mount the j-12 nor the prewar biogon 35/2.8

 

[Donald Qualls]

The rangefinder coupled adapter for Contax to m39 is the Amedeo adapter.

The other option- buy an inexpensive adapter and an LTM camera.

FOTOFOX Contax Rangefinder CRF RF Lens to Leica Mount M39 L39 Adapter RF-L39 | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for FOTOFOX Contax Rangefinder CRF RF Lens to Leica Mount M39 L39 Adapter RF-L39 at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

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I was looking at those eBay adapters and thinking it certainly looks like they tried to make them work with the RF coupling. I'd guess they're Chinese copies of that Amedeo, though I've never seen one of those.

Either way, if the adapter can stay on the body and the lenses mount and dismount as they do on a Contax/Kiev, that plus a Canon 7 might be the answer. Then I can choose whether to get Contax mount or LTM for future lens purchases (a faster 50 is surely in the future -- f/2 is acceptable, but my tiny Weltini has an f/2 50 mm Xenon so it'd be nice to have an f/1.5 or so on the bigger, heavier camera along with the other choices).