What the, .. Kodak Stock XTOL dev times

peter k. · Sep 20, 2020

Ha.. interesting, there is a conflict with Kodak's timings.
On the Tech data sheet for T-Max 400 for developing in XTOL
https://imaging.kodakalaris.com/sites/prod/files/files/resources/f4043_TMax_400.pdf
It states (page 3) for small tank processing: Stock XTOL @ 75* = 5.25 minutes

On the mixing wrapper that the XTOL came in, it states: Stock XTOL @ 75* = 4.5 minutes.
The timing for 68* is the same on both. 6.5 min

Sooo.. which timing to do you use?

Anon Ymous · Sep 20, 2020

The current TMax 400 datasheet states 5:15 for this temperature, so... The time listed on the Xtol package might be for the older TMax 400 version.

peter k. · Sep 20, 2020

Perhaps, but .. we got our first XTOL several months ago, and then it was replaced by Kodak, soooo... this data on the package should be up to date.

Adrian Bacon · Sep 20, 2020

peter k. said:
Perhaps, but .. we got our first XTOL several months ago, and then it was replaced by Kodak, soooo... this data on the package should be up to date.

When in doubt, give it more time. It’s better to have a little more grain and contrast than to be missing shadow detail because of under development. That being said, Kodak’s times are starting point recommendations.

pentaxuser · Sep 20, 2020

I have just has a look at j109 and you are right but if this is accounted for by two different versions of TMax then intuitively I'd expect both times to be different. It seems strange that for 68F they are the same but for 75F However I have just managed to locate the sheet for older TMax 400 called F-32 and Anon Ymous has got the right cause. For some strange the 75F times are different between the older and newer version of Tmax but not once you get to 68F

If you have what is now the very old TMax and wish to develop at 75F it would seem that 4.5 mins is right but Kodak warns that shorter than 5 mins may produce uneven development

As far as wrapper with chemicals are concerned it is the problem highlighted before,namely it is difficult and expensive to make changes to such hardcopy specs issued so it doesn't always get done quickly but specs as pdf can be changed straight away

pentaxuser

MattKing · Sep 20, 2020

What does the bag of X-Tol look like?

beemermark · Sep 20, 2020

Develop the film at 68 deg and you'll be ok.

Doremus Scudder · Sep 21, 2020

Kodak stopped being a reliable source for developing times years ago. Their times for HC-110 are waaay off. I wouldn't trust them for Xtol either, even though it is a newer product. The Kodak research labs are long gone.

Find your own optimum development time by testing. Use a reliable source as a starting point. (someone here, even the MDC as long as format and developing method are the same).

There's really no substitute for doing it yourself.

Doremus

Donald Qualls · Sep 21, 2020

Since I started using Xtol (replenished stock) a couple months ago, every film I've tried in it has worked well with the Massive Dev Chart times. That includes .EDU Ultra (Fomapan) 100 and 400, ORWO DN21, .EDU (Forte) 400, 1990s vintage Tri-X 320 -- if I did my part at exposure time, I get good results. That said, your agitation, thermometer, exposure preferences, etc. may vary from mine, so you might still find the need to adjust your time -- but IMO the MDC is as good a source of starting point times as any.

PhilBurton · Sep 21, 2020

Doremus Scudder said:
Kodak stopped being a reliable source for developing times years ago. Their times for HC-110 are waaay off. I wouldn't trust them for Xtol either, even though it is a newer product. The Kodak research labs are long gone.

Doremus

How the mighty have fallen. Sic transit gloria mundi. [No, it doesn't mean that Gloria got sick on the Monday bus. ]

reddesert · Sep 21, 2020

If you take a developing time of 6.5 minutes at 68 deg F, and use the usual time-temperature conversions (I use the "developing dial" calculator in my venerable 1970s Kodak Darkroom Dataguide), then you get about 4.5 minutes at 75 deg F.

Maybe somebody at Kodak tested it and decided that 4.5 minutes is too short for Xtol, and came up with that 5.25 minutes number in J109.

My opinion is that if you use anything like daylight tanks that take a while to fill and drain, you can't expect to time your development more accurately than about 30 seconds anyway. If you need more accuracy you may need to be dip and dunking. I am not a stickler for accuracy but prefer developer-film-temp combinations that are at least 5-6 minutes.

pentaxuser · Sep 22, 2020

As a matter of interest what did you decide to do Peter and how did it turn out?

Thanks

pentaxuser

Donald Qualls · Sep 22, 2020

reddesert said:
My opinion is that if you use anything like daylight tanks that take a while to fill and drain, you can't expect to time your development more accurately than about 30 seconds anyway.

Depends on the daylight tank, I guess. I have Paterson tanks, two-reel and three-reel (called out as 35mm reels; the latter holds two, when set for 120, meaning I can process four rolls in it, two in a reel). The larger tank (with a full liter of solution to cover two 120 reels) will drain in no more than ten seconds, and fill in about the same. I use a timer app that notifies me fifteen seconds before end of a bath, and routinely have to wait a few seconds before pouring the next bath (stop bath after developer is the main place this matters). I've quit using my 4x35mm stainless tank, I can't fill it in less than a minute. Even my Nikor (with 2x220 stainless reels) takes more than thirty seconds to fill, but my Yankee Agitank (for sheet film) fills and drains about like a Paterson -- even with 1.6L for 4x5.

peter k. · Sep 22, 2020

Thank you all for your replies. Please realize this is the first bag, well second bag as Kodak replaced the first one and were in the process of testing it 1:1 and now stock, to find the developing timing we would like, with current Tmax sheet film.
So here is an Update: The question was asked after we investigated why the stock development looked rather thin, when we developed it for 4.5 minutes, and found the different timings, and wondered what the heck. Pentaxuser's reply about the ease of changing PDF over what was printed on the bag, made a lot of sense so were about to start are XTOL stock developing adventure again @ 5.25 via the PDF timings from Kodak and then try it longer as MDC suggests at 6 min for sheet film

pentaxuser · Sep 22, 2020

Thanks Peter Take this with a large pinch of salt but my experience with Xtol 1+1 and the new 120 TMax is that it looks as if erring on the generous side with development times is likely to be quite safe based on my use of Kodak times.

pentaxuser

PhilBurton · Sep 22, 2020

pentaxuser said:
Thanks Peter Take this with a large pinch of salt but my experience with Xtol 1+1 and the new 120 TMax is that it looks as if erring on the generous side with development times is likely to be quite safe based on my use of Kodak times.

pentaxuser

So based on this entire thread, what should I use for my two-reel 35 mm old but good Nikor steel tank?

pentaxuser · Sep 23, 2020

PhilBurton said:
So based on this entire thread, what should I use for my two-reel 35 mm old but good Nikor steel tank?

Don't know but then again I am not sure what the apparent discrepancy in Kodak times has to do with the kind of developing tank you have. I might have misunderstood you of course but it's just that you seem to be suggesting that times may be dependent on the tank?

pentaxuser

MattKing · Sep 23, 2020

peter k. said:
Ha.. interesting, there is a conflict with Kodak's timings.
On the Tech data sheet for T-Max 400 for developing in XTOL
https://imaging.kodakalaris.com/sites/prod/files/files/resources/f4043_TMax_400.pdf
It states (page 3) for small tank processing: Stock XTOL @ 75* = 5.25 minutes

On the mixing wrapper that the XTOL came in, it states: Stock XTOL @ 75* = 4.5 minutes.
The timing for 68* is the same on both. 6.5 min

Sooo.. which timing to do you use?

Looks to me like they have put on the bag a 75F time more appropriate for sheet film in trays than roll film in small tanks.

peter k. · Sep 23, 2020

MattKing said:
Looks to me like they have put on the bag a 75F time more appropriate for sheet film in trays than roll film in small tanks.

Oh Matt you quietly, gently nailed me!!!
,,, Two thumbs up. Haha ahHaa ...
Thank you ... still laughing... oh my... yes...
.. Ahoy, anybody home, ... ha yesssss ... oh ...

What the, .. Kodak Stock XTOL dev times

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