What real B&W film to start with?

Neal · Jan 31, 2007

Dear film guy,

It seems you need grain but cheap and easy processing. Many one hour/overnight places will make b&w prints from color film. My suggestion is to purchase out of date 800 speed color film for grain and have the lab print in b&w. XP-2 is a wonderful film, but not if you're after grain. Among the mail order places, I know that both Snapfish.com and Kodakgallery.com offer b&w prints from color film.

Neal Wydra

filmnut · Jan 31, 2007

Hi;
I'll also suggest that you try developing you own, and although I do have an enlarger, I often use a local one hour mini lab for quick and decent proof prints when I don't have the time to do the printing myself. Ask at the same place that you have had your 400CN done, if they will print from processed B&W negs, most likely the will.
Even if you don't have a bathroom that you can make completely light tight, if you do the loading of the film at night, with the window blocked, you should be alright. If you do try this, practise loading the tank with a scrap piece of film in the light, so you can get the feel of if first.
As for film suggestions, I'd add Fuji Neopan 1600, nice tonality and grain, but a little harder to find than some of the others.
Good luck and have fun!

DBP · Jan 31, 2007

film_guy said:
I've been talking to a friend who does some film photography, and he said HP5 is more pushable than Tri-X when needed (especially up to iso1600). Is this true?

Don't get me wrong, I'm very interested in developing my own B&W film, but currently just don't have the time nor a film scanner to scan the processed negs, thus my reliance on 1 hour photo labs. I also need the 4x6 and 5x7 prints from them because I don't think I can afford to get my own printing equipment.

You can afford to get your own printing equipment if you take a little time. Look for enlargers on Craigslist, and local pickup ones on fleabay. Also check thrift stores, flea markets, etc. I once bought two for $10 at a flea market. Everything else can be improvised, except a safelight, and for that the plain bulbs are cheap.

Ole · Jan 31, 2007

If you get a Paterson developing tank, two reels, a cheap picture frame with 8x10" (better 24x30cm) glass, a bottle of fix and another of developer; that's really all you need. >total cost should be less than $50, and only the chemicals need replacing.

Getting EI 800 out of HP5+ is easy - use Ilfotec HC at 1+31 dilution. It works.

A couple of times I have loaded film into the spirals outdoors, at night. Sometimes I use a darkrrom, sometimes just any dark room...

luke_h · Jan 31, 2007

I'm with everyone else on developing it yourself. I don't have a darkroom. I use a changing bag and a Patterson tank and just develop film in my bathroom. At first it was intimidating before getting started.. Now I dont' really do any C41 stuff. I figure if I want a color photo, that's what my digital camera is for.

I have been putting together all the makings of a darkroom and so far I'm into it at 250 dollars and have everything I need to do printing. Nearly everything I have bought is used equipment (antique status even!) but it will be very fulfilling when I see my own prints hanging to dry in my own home.

If you insist on having a lab do your stuff, XP2 is awesome film for that. But I still prefer any true b&w over it for my own stuff. I shoot a lot of Fomapan 200 and it ends up at about $1.00 per roll for film when I use bulk rolls. TX and HP5+ are both excellent. They're also nearly the most expensive to use.

I've been piecing all of my lab stuff together now for years (slowly when I find good deals) and it hasn't broken the bank. I'd say 350.00 total invested in everything I have, not including the price of film.

film_guy · Jan 31, 2007

I've tried XP2 before, and it came out looking the same as BW400CN from the local lab (seems to have this foggy looking to them, a little too "clean" or should I say grainless and not enough contrast, unlike the B&W photos I've seen on http://www.jamesnachtwey.com/

The sharpness (maybe from the lack of grain?) isn't there too from the XP2 and BW400CN which I tried before.

I guess I'm going to start processing my own B&W negs, but I've got one question, if it sounds silly please forgive me. How do I make sure the developer's at the right temperature (27 degrees or 30 degrees celsius when pushed to 800 according to Ilford's website)? How do you heat up the developer? Hot water through the tap? Boiling water from a kettle?

I think I'm going to go buy a small Paterson tank and a couple of reels.

JBrunner · Jan 31, 2007

Get a big (new) kitty litter tray, a thermometer, and fill it with water of the right temperature.(for the ultimate in convienient tempering control, an unbreakable aqaurium heater is nice.) Bring you chemistry and water to temperature using the tray as a tempering bath for the containers that hold your water and chemistry.

eddym · Jan 31, 2007

film_guy said:
The sharpness (maybe from the lack of grain?) isn't there too from the XP2 and BW400CN which I tried before.

If your XP2 is not sharp, it's not the film's fault. Lack of grain, yes, but lack of sharpness, no.
I do agree with the others, though; if you want a grainy look you need a traditional B&W film. I'd use HP5 or TriX in HC110, 1:31. And push it. But you will need to process it yourself or get a custom B&W lab to do it for you (or another photographer), and you're not going to get your lab scans anymore; you can't have it both ways.

luke_h · Jan 31, 2007

I'm too impatient for that ;-) I pour my chemicals for developing (I usually am doing one-shot mixes of D76, Rodinal, or HC110) into a plastic measuring cup. I use about 300ml of fluid in total for 1 roll of 35mm or 600ml for two. 500ml for a roll of 120 film. This is using the Patterson plastic tank, mind you...

Then I stick my measuring cup in the microwave and warm it up to 68F. My house is about 68F, so the temperature falloff is insignificant.. If I accidentally overwarm it, I put the measuring cup in the fridge for a couple minutes and repeat my process. I might only have it in the microwave for 10 seconds, but it's a lot quicker than letting the tap get to the right temperature and messing around with buckets of water to warm it up.

reub2000 · Jan 31, 2007

When using a developer from concentrate, you just have to get the temperature of the water right. Run a thermometer under the running water, adjusting both the hot and cold water until the temperature is just right.

Also, most development takes place at 20C, not 30C. I don't know where you got that temp. (Color development is at 38C, but that is not something for your ordinary B&W darkroom.)

JBrunner · Jan 31, 2007

yes 68-70f for us jurrasic park residents. You may be tempted to be impatient and to shortcut, and shortcuts are fine, as long as you have consistent, repeatable control of your process. If not you're just halfa$$ing it, and your result will be halfa$$ as well.

fhovie · Jan 31, 2007

I think there is a little more to it than just consistancy - Many developers just do not do a proper job at higher temperatures - especially when you get to the high seveties. Being a desert rat and doing a lot of pushing, I have developed a lot of film at 75 an 78 deg and even with proper time compensation, the DR will be ok but the grain seem larger. Also - what ever temp you start the process with, you need to stay within 4 deg thoughout the process to avoid reticulation. That means heating up wash water and fixer.

JBrunner · Jan 31, 2007

fhovie said:
I think there is a little more to it than just consistancy - Many developers just do not do a proper job at higher temperatures - especially when you get to the high seveties. Being a desert rat and doing a lot of pushing, I have developed a lot of film at 75 an 78 deg and even with proper time compensation, the DR will be ok but the grain seem larger. Also - what ever temp you start the process with, you need to stay within 4 deg thoughout the process to avoid reticulation. That means heating up wash water and fixer.

Well said. Be consistent, and be accurate, and yes there is allot more to it, actually, but without being consistant, you won't have any idea of what does what, when, and why. You won't be able to learn from your results, because you won't know what got you there, temperature, time, developer, agitation, water, developer, film, exposure, etc. Pick your combination and learn from one variable at a time.

film_guy · Feb 1, 2007

I shot the roll of XP2 using the right settings, and I made sure that the apperture is F5.6 to F8 with better than minimum shutter speed for handholding. I did try to overexpose the roll a bit since my Elan 7N's meter sometimes underexpose by about -1/2.

At first I thought it was my camera/lens problem (lens is a 50mm 1.8), but the Superia Xtra 400 shots came out looking sharp at the same settings. I asked the lab people what's wrong, and they told me that chromogenics just aren't as sharp as real B&W film or 35mm color film.

This is one of the reasons why I'm moving over to shooting real B&W film. The sharpness just isn't there in the BW400CN and XP2 rolls I did from 6 months ago.

eddym said:
If your XP2 is not sharp, it's not the film's fault. Lack of grain, yes, but lack of sharpness, no.
I do agree with the others, though; if you want a grainy look you need a traditional B&W film. I'd use HP5 or TriX in HC110, 1:31. And push it. But you will need to process it yourself or get a custom B&W lab to do it for you (or another photographer), and you're not going to get your lab scans anymore; you can't have it both ways.

fschifano · Feb 1, 2007

luke_h said:
I'm too impatient for that ;-) I pour my chemicals for developing (I usually am doing one-shot mixes of D76, Rodinal, or HC110) into a plastic measuring cup. I use about 300ml of fluid in total for 1 roll of 35mm or 600ml for two. 500ml for a roll of 120 film. This is using the Patterson plastic tank, mind you...

Then I stick my measuring cup in the microwave and warm it up to 68F. My house is about 68F, so the temperature falloff is insignificant.. If I accidentally overwarm it, I put the measuring cup in the fridge for a couple minutes and repeat my process. I might only have it in the microwave for 10 seconds, but it's a lot quicker than letting the tap get to the right temperature and messing around with buckets of water to warm it up.

It takes about 30 minutes for everything to come up to temperature in a water bath. Use plastic pop bottles to hold the working chemistry for the session. It is less insulating than glass. I'll bet that you won't be spending much more time by letting the chemistry sit in a water bath than by going back and forth from microwave to fridge.

JBrunner · Feb 1, 2007

I switched long ago- no glass bottles in my darkroom- I'm too clumsy.

eddie gunks · Feb 1, 2007

one of the main reasons i use hc110 is cause it is so easy to get the right temp. i get my water at 20C and then i mix my 12ml of juice and i am away.

developing your own is very easy. i use daylight tanks and a changing bag most of the time. when needed i do use a darkroom and trays, but i have just moved and my darkroom has yet to be put back into service.

eddie

darkroom1975 · Feb 8, 2007

You don't even need A darkroom to develop your own film. I live In A 8 ft by 10ft room in NYC and develop my own film. $50 worth of stuff get some string and clothespins at the $1 store, maybe some scissors, and those peroxide bottles work perfect for storage. you don't have to be dropping a bunch of cash or have a spare room. Its worth It and may be the only way your really fined the film you like.
1) Changing bag 7) Thermometer
2) Tank 8) Measuring Beaker
3) Developer 9) Don't Forget the can Opener
4) Stop 10) Exposed film
5) Fix
6) Wash

reub2000 · Feb 8, 2007

#4 stop can be plain water, or it can be diluted vinnegar. For #9, you can rewind the film with the leader sticking out. You said you use an ELAN 7N, so that should be CF2. Or use a bulk roll with a screw off top.

Also, get a wetting agent. Photo-flo helps film dry.

Never used a changing bag, however a darkroom isn't that hard to create. Just cover the windows and put a towel under the door of a room. Preferably one with as few windows as possible.

luke_h · Feb 8, 2007

fschifano said:
It takes about 30 minutes for everything to come up to temperature in a water bath. Use plastic pop bottles to hold the working chemistry for the session. It is less insulating than glass. I'll bet that you won't be spending much more time by letting the chemistry sit in a water bath than by going back and forth from microwave to fridge.

I usually have my film hanging to dry well within 30 minutes of getting the idea to develop ;-) The microwave trick takes me about 20 seconds. I've done it enough that I know my microwave heats up 500ml of liquid 1 degree C about every 5 seconds.

I did use this trick yesterday when warming up my paper developer for the darkroom.. Everything was at 55F when I started, but I sat the three, one litre bottles in hot water while I set up everything and it was all around 75F by the time I got my first negative put into the enlarger and ready to go.

What real B&W film to start with?

Neal

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DBP

Ole

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luke_h

film_guy

JBrunner

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eddym

luke_h

reub2000

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fhovie

JBrunner

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film_guy

fschifano

JBrunner

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eddie gunks

darkroom1975

reub2000

luke_h

What real B&W film to start with?

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