What paper responds best.

michael9793 · Nov 19, 2006

which VC paper responds best to the Zone VI VC enlarger which uses the green and blue to change the contrast. SO far I have been using Ilford but have to buy more paper and was wondering if there is anything better on tonal separation in the high and low grades.:confused:

User Removed · Nov 19, 2006

Ilford paper is just muddy in the high values. Simple as that.

Donald Miller · Nov 19, 2006

While Ryan is certainly entitled to his opinion, I think that there are a number of good papers out there and some people like Ilford a lot.

A lot depends on knowing how to determine the characteristics of the paper and then producing a camera negative that has the characteristics that match the paper.

I personally use JandC Polywarmtone (Forte) and Nuance from JandC for most of my printing. Nuance is graded while Polywarmtone is VC.

dancqu · Nov 19, 2006

Ryan McIntosh said:
Ilford paper is just muddy in the high values. Simple as that.

A specific case of the general rule that VC papers loose much
of their VC character in the less dense areas of the print.

By way of contrast try some Graded paper. Likely it
will not go to waste. Dan

Les McLean · Nov 19, 2006

Ryan McIntosh said:
Ilford paper is just muddy in the high values. Simple as that.

Not when it comes out of my darkroom Ryan, perhaps you should work a little harder or try different methods when you use Ilford paper.

User Removed · Nov 19, 2006

I don't print on Ilford, but nearly all prints I've seen on Ilford MG FB have weak separation in the high values. The paper lacks depth.

Now, a good printer can surly get this paper to look decent with alot of work, so I'm not saying a good print cannot be produced on it.

Amund · Nov 20, 2006

Hmm, looks like someone has posted as Ryan, but with a slightly different spelling, what`s up with that?

Ole · Nov 20, 2006

Someone is having a bit of fun at Ryan McIntosh'es expense, it seems.

But we know who it is.

Les McLean · Nov 20, 2006

Ryan McIntosh said:
I don't print on Ilford, but nearly all prints I've seen on Ilford MG FB have weak separation in the high values. The paper lacks depth.

Now, a good printer can surly get this paper to look decent with alot of work, so I'm not saying a good print cannot be produced on it.

With respect Ryan, if you don't print on this paper and wish to comment as you did, you should at least be even handed and look at good prints as well as bad prints before you make the claims that you have.

User Removed · Nov 20, 2006

Les McLean said:
With respect Ryan, if you don't print on this paper and wish to comment as you did, you should at least be even handed and look at good prints as well as bad prints before you make the claims that you have.

Les,

I've seen tons of prints made on Ilford MG FB paper, some have been beautiful, some have not. I have a few Ansel Adams SEP prints made by Alan Ross in my house that are printed on it, and they are very beautiful prints.

However, I'm not the only one that agrees that the paper has weak separation in the high values.

I'm not going to bother debating about my dislike or like for a certain product. That is a complete waste, totally pointless and I'm to busy for it.

Hopefully the creator of this thread (who found this paper to have weak separation in the high values as well) will discover a paper that works perfect for him.

Take care,

Ryan McIntosh

michael9793 · Nov 20, 2006

Ryan and Les,
Using the Zone VI MC Enlarger I seem to have this with many papers. Could it be the use of green and blue light versing the yellow and magenta most people use from a color head. Also I can't use graded paper because my enlarge will not do white light. I have a flat negative and a contrasty negative I tied to print this weekend and had problems at both ends. I'm going to look into maybe getting a enlarger and the AZO head to print with since I use Azo papers for my LF and Ulf cameras. and it is white so I could use graded papers for my enlargments of my regular stuff till the new lodima fine print paper comes out.

Michael Andersen

Sal Santamaura · Nov 20, 2006

Ryan McIntosh said:
Ilford paper is just muddy in the high values. Simple as that.

Ryan McIntosh said:
...However, I'm not the only one that agrees that the paper has weak separation in the high values...Hopefully the creator of this thread (who found this paper to have weak separation in the high values as well)...

That's not what Michael Andersen said. He indicated a problem with poor separation at high and low grades.

It seems to me that a little closer reading of questions and a bit more hesitation before clicking on "Submit Reply" might benefit users of internet forums and make searching archives less arduous.

michael9793 said:
...Also I can't use graded paper because my enlarge will not do white light...

There's no reason not to use graded paper with your enlarger. Such papers respond primarily to blue light. Turn both tubes so you can see to focus, then print.

Les McLean · Nov 20, 2006

michael9793 said:
Ryan and Les,
Using the Zone VI MC Enlarger I seem to have this with many papers. Could it be the use of green and blue light versing the yellow and magenta most people use from a color head. Also I can't use graded paper because my enlarge will not do white light. I have a flat negative and a contrasty negative I tied to print this weekend and had problems at both ends. I'm going to look into maybe getting a enlarger and the AZO head to print with since I use Azo papers for my LF and Ulf cameras. and it is white so I could use graded papers for my enlargments of my regular stuff till the new lodima fine print paper comes out.

Michael Andersen

Michael, I use the same enlarger and my prints on many papers including Ilford Multigrade and Warmtone, show good separation throughout both high and low grades. However, I do make many of my prints using split grade printing with only the grade 5 and grade 0 filters. I also print with single graded papers, Oriental Seagull and a dwindling stock of Kodak Ektalure, using my Zone VI enlarger with both tubes fully on and I have no problems with the results.

lee · Nov 20, 2006

Michael,

Les is giving good advice. Graded paper works well with just the blue light.

lee\c

michael9793 · Nov 20, 2006

Les,
thanks for the information. I will order some graded paper and see how it works with both lights on. I too use split grade printing and the RH Design f/stop timer. I also use AZO and don't seem to have the same problem with hightlights and shadows as I do with the printing paper. I know the tonal quality of the AZO can be much better, but I have always felt that VC paper never gave me the control or snap I'm looking for. I have been contact printing with Ilford MC VI paper latly for my 8x20's due to the lack of Azo, and still seem to have problems with the highlights. they seem to just drop off slightly. Most work doesn't get this crazy but when I have those prints that need just a special touch. I just don't seem to get it there. I'm sure it's more me than material.(we all seem to want to blame everything but ourselves). I have been doing this for almost 40 years and at this time feel I'm seeing the problems much better than ever. Also I'm more of a nit-pick about my work and still don't feel I have reached a peak in visual aspect or in the quality of printing yet.

Regards

Michael Andersen

michael9793 · Nov 20, 2006

Lee,
thanks, when are you having Les come back over for a workshop. I feel I need to go to it.

Mike
PS nice to hear from you again.

kjsphoto · Nov 20, 2006

I have to agree with Ryan on this as I have printed on Ilford and its values are compressed. I also use a Zone VI Cold Light VC head as well. I have tried it on several occasions and ended up giving the paper away as I find that it is a paper that does not have the look I care for. The tonality just isnt there. I have not tried Ilford warm tone papers but I hear they are rather good.

I do not understand people around here. You have a person that makes a comment and the immaturity here just floors me. People now sign up as someone else and post comments under other users name and then the moderators here thinks it is funny? I think that person that did this should be ban period.

You people really are something else.

In response to the question at hand, Mike try; Forte Polygrade Cold Tone VC, Kentmere VC, JandC Warmtone which I think it repackage Forte but I could be wrong, Bregger ( A little on the expensive side ).

Good luck in your search as I know how much of a headache it was for me when the paper I used was no longer being made. I went through so many different brands and spent a lot of money testing. I finally ended up with 3 different ones that all also do well with lith. A neutral, cold and Warmtone and none are Ilford.

lee · Nov 20, 2006

do not understand people around here. You have a person that makes a comment and the immaturity here just floors me. People now sign up as someone else and post comments under other users name and then the moderators here thinks it is funny? I think that person that did this should be ban period.

You people really are something else.

Kevin,

what are you talking about?

lee\c

kjsphoto · Nov 20, 2006

Lee

Someone is having a bit of fun at Ryan McIntosh'es expense, it seems.

But we know who it is.

There were other post as well.

Old Today, 05:25 AM
Ryan MacIntosh
This message has been deleted by Sean. Reason: impersonating a member, violator has been warned.

And there were a few other posts as well.

So now you know what I am talking about. This childish behavior is completely and totally out of line.

Les McLean · Nov 20, 2006

I agree Kevin but why make the comment "You people really are something else." That suggests that you accuse all who post here.

kjsphoto · Nov 20, 2006

Sorry as usual I use the wrong words. You I was referring to the person that did it and the people that thought it was funny as it was not. I did not mean YOU as the community as a whole. Sorry about that. I accuse those that find this behavior acceptable.

TheFlyingCamera · Nov 20, 2006

To get back to the original poster's request....

I did a fair bit of paper testing last year when I went on a quest to "fix" my paper/developer combo. I had been printing on Bergger VCCB (variable contrast warmtone), and developing in Dektol. First, I got mad at Bergger because they changed the weight of the paper stock, and raised prices, but didn't give any notice. It especially tweaked my nose because I found this out after ordering some non-returnable 16x20 paper. I sampled around, and tried Ilford, Foma, and Kentmere. I settled on Kentmere for a while, but after using the better part of a box of 100 sheets of 8x10, I decided that it was too contrasty. The Foma was nice, but not quite what I was looking for. Same with the Ilford. I ended up back with Bergger after doing a paper developer test as well. I now use a combination of the new Ilford Warmtone/Cooltone paper developers, depending on the image tone I want from my prints. I tested the Ansco 130, Ilford warmtone/cooltone, and Dektol developers. For sheer convenience, the Ilford Warmtone/Cooltone come out ahead, but the Ansco 130 is also a very nice developer, and I'd use it more if it were a little more convenient and economical.

If you want a specific recommendation, try the Bergger. Otherwise, get a few 25 sheet packs of various things from Freestyle and do a shoot-out. Give the Foma and Adox a try - you might be pleasantly surprised.

lee · Nov 20, 2006

thanks Kevin I agree

lee\c

lee · Nov 20, 2006

I suspect that one needs to tailor their negs to the paper they are using instead of making the paper fit the negs.

lee\c

TheFlyingCamera · Nov 20, 2006

lee said:
I suspect that one needs to tailor their negs to the paper they are using instead of making the paper fit the negs.

lee\c

Lee- in general I'd agree, but what happens if you tailor your negs to a specific paper (like AZO) and then it goes away? You're stuck with negs that will be a challenge on other silver papers.

What paper responds best.

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