What modern photography is "INNOVATIVE"?

snusmumriken said:

Sounds good, Alex, but is it really true? Surely one can innovate within a set of constraining parameters?

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Of course. The works of George Perec is proof of that. La disparition, a novel in which the constraining parameter was not to have a single word with the letter "e" in it (what is called a lipogrammatic novel), is one of the most innovative works of litterature of the 20th century. But that's a personal constraint, one which the writer is free to take. Both the surrealists and l'Oulipo, the two groups Perec was associated with, were all about freedom, both in their own paradoxical way. But put overarching rules, regulations and strict definitions — "This is what a novel should be and if you don't do this you can't call it a novel and can't call yourself a novelist" —, the innovative artistic projects of the surrealists or l'Oulipo are no longer possible.

To over-simplify, one could state that innovation is part planning, part chance, part borrowing, part intuition, part just plain hard work. Sometimes you get all five, sometimes not, and there's no rule as to which amount of which is necessary.

pentaxuser said:

I haven't heard that phrase " blithering idiot " since some of the 1950s/earlier 60s British TV situation comedies. Have you got British connections, Brian?

pentaxuser

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I'm actually hearing Basil Fawlty's voice .

Alex Benjamin said:

I'm actually hearing Basil Fawlty's voice .

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I'm hearing my grandmother's voice as well.

Alex Benjamin said:

To over-simplify, one could state that innovation is part planning, part chance, part borrowing, part intuition, part just plain hard work. Sometimes you get all five, sometimes not, and there's no rule as to which amount of which is necessary.

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It sounds as though success is a necessary aspect of innovation - because what is it if you have all those 5 components and they lead to nothing? That leaves me wondering when self-conscious experiment (or departure from a conservative norm) becomes an innovation. Does it need to be judged to be significant, applauded and assimilated into what is then considered a better, broader church?

koraks said:

Very pretty indeed. I'm not familiar with his work, but insofar as I can form an opinion of it based on some online browsing, I'm struggling to see anything innovative in it - in fact, his work seems to be the polar opposite of innovative. I note this due to the subject matter of the thread and not as a dismissal of his work. I'd definitely enjoy it seeing it exhibited.

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Treatment of color.

snusmumriken said:

It sounds as though success is a necessary aspect of innovation - because what is it if you have all those 5 components and they lead to nothing? That leaves me wondering when self-conscious experiment (or departure from a conservative norm) becomes an innovation. Does it need to be judged to be significant, applauded and assimilated into what is then considered a better, broader church?

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Guess it depends on how you define success. Perec was immensely innovative and imaginative —and I should have added "imagination" as a sixth factor. La disparition is an amazing feat, is considered a significant addition to the canon of 20th century literature and is applauded, but I'm not sure it works as a novel, partly because it feels like the lipogrammatic exercice takes precedence over story — and Perec is a very good storyteller, as shown in his other novel, La vie mode d'emploi.

Another example of self-conscious experiment that is also departure from a conservative norm, but very different in reach, impact and influence than La disparition, is James Joyce's Ulysses. It's interesting to note that the decade following the 14-18 war was one of immense innovation in literature, with, next to Joyce's, such works as Kafka's The Trial, Proust's A la recherche du temps perdu, Hasek's The Good Soldier Svejk, Thomas Mann's The Magic Mountain, Virginia Woolf's Mrs Dalloway, Herman Hesse's Siddharta, Hemingway's A Farewell to Arms, Svevo's La coscienza di Zeno, Remarque's All Quiet on the Western Front, Moravia's Gli indifferenti, the short stories of Langston Hughes, etc. And we're just talking European and American literature here, with a bunch of other interesting and innovative stuff happening elsewhere.

All the works are immensely innovative, but each in its own way. There's no universal criteria of innovation at work that unites them all, that can be applied to all. Each is part self-conscious experiment — but sitting at a desk every single day at the same time to write two lines, a paragraph or a page for months if not years (i.e., the very act of writing) is in itself a self-conscious experiment. And each, in its own way, depart from a conservative norm, but departing from a conservative norm isn't necessarely the point of each, but simply a consequence of having to tell the story a certain way.

Arthurwg said:

Treatment of color.

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Thanks; I'd love to see the work in person as I think it's hard to get a good impression especially on that aspect through online presentations.

BrianShaw said:

I'm hearing my grandmother's voice as well.

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My grandmother said things like “Dash my rags!”

I expect most modern innovation in photography comes in the form of photographs - in particular moving photographs (video) - being taken in circumstances where cameras were never found regularly before.
The cel phone camera has definitely changed the world.
I have an image in my mind from a glimpse I had about 6 years ago of a group of religious acolytes in saffron robes buying a cel phone in a store in a mall ....

Interesting. I initially thought only of aesthetic, graphic, pictorial or conceptual innovation rather than technical.

Arthurwg said:

Treatment of color.

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Elger Esser was new to me too. I like the work a lot, would love to have them on my own wall - so I am very grateful for the introduction. But I do agree with @koraks that although different as well as lovely, they seem quite trad. I suppose we are getting dangerously close to definitions again, but isn't this a guy who has found his unique voice with the existing songbook?

snusmumriken said:

Elger Esser was new to me too. I like the work a lot, would love to have them on my own wall - so I am very grateful for the introduction. But I do agree with @koraks that although different as well as lovely, they seem quite trad. I suppose we are getting dangerously close to definitions again, but isn't this a guy who has found his unique voice with the existing songbook?

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I think what's interesting is use of traditional motifs with a new take on color rendition.

Arthurwg said:

I think what's interesting is use of traditional motifs with a new take on color rendition.

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I too think that's interesting, although I'd have to have a really good look at the work to see if what he does is all that different from what Hollywood has been doing in terms of color grading for quite some time. Then again, in terms of timescale, he might have been earlier than Hollywood, or the developments may have been parallel. In the end, as far as I'm concerned it's not all that relevant; what I find more interesting is the notion that use of color in relatively 'straight' pictorial photography in itself can be an innovative aspect - which brings the question what the possibilities are for this and to what extent they're still left unexplored. So thanks for opening the door to these questions.

It is old-hat and cliché these days, but Aaron Jones' 'Hosemaster' technique was quite innovative when it first came out.

Esser is contemporary and probably got the idea from cinema. But my reaction to seeing his pictures was that this was something different, beautiful and striking. The pictures are rather large, which contributes to their effect. He war a student of the Bechers in Dusseldorf.