What matters in Film and Chemistry for the Flatbed Scanning Photographer?

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hsandler

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I'm seeking a guide for the perplexed hybrid photographer. I've been shooting black and white negative film, home developing, and scanning on an Epson flatbed. In searching the online literature, I find little advice that is directly applicable to getting the best possible results (best resolution, least apparent grain, greatest apparent acutance, good tonality (whatever tonality is precisely). Most advice on chemistry and film on APUG, for example, pertains to wet printing. My sense is that most of the discussions about developers, especially caffenol, diafine compensating, pyro, seem to pertain mainly to controlling shadow detail and highlights for printing in the darkroom, and how the grain will appear. But I scan medium format with a cheap flatbed at 2400-4800 ppi with probably lower real resolution (that's not going to change for economic reasons) and finish in Photoshop with maybe C prints from an online lab at 11x14. I'm not resolving grain; it's certainly aliased. While I do see a difference in apparent graininess between 100 and 400 speed film, I question if developing with high or low acutance would be visible in my scans. I also wonder if the characteristic curves of various film/developer combinations make much difference, given I'm scanning at 16 bits and can push tones around a bit in Photoshop without banding. I am meandering a bit, so here are some specific questions for the gurus:

1. I am now using D76 stock or 1:1 for everything (cheap and keeps well). According to Kodak's literature, XTOL seems to do everything a bit better. However, I've read it dies suddently unless mixed and kept carefully and the 5L at a time quantity is problematic for the occasional user like me. Would it give noticeably better results in a scan at 2400-4800 ppi?

2. I am following the general rule of thumb of halving box speed and underdeveloping (pulling). Is this really necessary for scanning? My cheapo scanner (Epson 4180) seems to be able to see even into dense negatives. Although I am not a detailed note-taker, it seems that the most grain is seen in images shot in low contrast lighting, such as overcast. Maybe higher contrast negatives would actually have less grain.

3. What's caffenol all about viz a viz scanning, other than the coolness factor of developing with home products. I'm not concerned about environmental impacts of the minute amount of developer I pour down the drain, so the eco factor isn't meaningful to me.

4. Does traditional vs. T-grain "modern" film make a difference when scanning at a ppi where grain is aliased? I happened to compare Tri-X vs. Delta 400 in D76 stock on similar scenes and didn't see much difference in grain, although the Tri-X "long toe" was apparent in that the shadows blocked up sooner. After curving, the tonality seemed it could be made similar, except for those very deep shadows. In overcast shots, they both seemed almost identical. Have I answered my own question?
 

RalphLambrecht

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seems to me you're on the right track already.common wisdom is indeed to overexpose a littleand underdevelop a bit to end up with a loer-than-normalnegative contrast, which catches all subject tones and optimize in PP.The new raw filter option in PSCC is doing an amazing job for meeven on JPEGsas far as negative quality goes . the choice of developer is less important than one may think. negative characteristics are pretty much locked in the momeny you buy your film. if you want less grain buy a finer grain film.developers have a secondary fine-tuning influence.
 
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hsandler

hsandler

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Thanks Ralph. Holy smokes! You are the author of the interesting-looking book that kept coming up when I was googling this topic last night. Now I'm sure I'm going to get your ebook.
 

RalphLambrecht

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Thanks Ralph. Holy smokes! You are the author of the interesting-looking book that kept coming up when I was googling this topic last night. Now I'm sure I'm going to get your ebook.

be my guestbut, for some reason the hardcover is outselling the ebook 10to 1. I prefer hard covers too but like the search capabilities with ebooks
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L Gebhardt

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I'm seeking a guide for the perplexed hybrid photographer. I've been shooting black and white negative film, home developing, and scanning on an Epson flatbed. In searching the online literature, I find little advice that is directly applicable to getting the best possible results (best resolution, least apparent grain, greatest apparent acutance, good tonality (whatever tonality is precisely). Most advice on chemistry and film on APUG, for example, pertains to wet printing. My sense is that most of the discussions about developers, especially caffenol, diafine compensating, pyro, seem to pertain mainly to controlling shadow detail and highlights for printing in the darkroom, and how the grain will appear. But I scan medium format with a cheap flatbed at 2400-4800 ppi with probably lower real resolution (that's not going to change for economic reasons) and finish in Photoshop with maybe C prints from an online lab at 11x14. I'm not resolving grain; it's certainly aliased. While I do see a difference in apparent graininess between 100 and 400 speed film, I question if developing with high or low acutance would be visible in my scans. I also wonder if the characteristic curves of various film/developer combinations make much difference, given I'm scanning at 16 bits and can push tones around a bit in Photoshop without banding. I am meandering a bit, so here are some specific questions for the gurus:

1. I am now using D76 stock or 1:1 for everything (cheap and keeps well). According to Kodak's literature, XTOL seems to do everything a bit better. However, I've read it dies suddently unless mixed and kept carefully and the 5L at a time quantity is problematic for the occasional user like me. Would it give noticeably better results in a scan at 2400-4800 ppi?

2. I am following the general rule of thumb of halving box speed and underdeveloping (pulling). Is this really necessary for scanning? My cheapo scanner (Epson 4180) seems to be able to see even into dense negatives. Although I am not a detailed note-taker, it seems that the most grain is seen in images shot in low contrast lighting, such as overcast. Maybe higher contrast negatives would actually have less grain.

3. What's caffenol all about viz a viz scanning, other than the coolness factor of developing with home products. I'm not concerned about environmental impacts of the minute amount of developer I pour down the drain, so the eco factor isn't meaningful to me.

4. Does traditional vs. T-grain "modern" film make a difference when scanning at a ppi where grain is aliased? I happened to compare Tri-X vs. Delta 400 in D76 stock on similar scenes and didn't see much difference in grain, although the Tri-X "long toe" was apparent in that the shadows blocked up sooner. After curving, the tonality seemed it could be made similar, except for those very deep shadows. In overcast shots, they both seemed almost identical. Have I answered my own question?

1) XTOL has never died on me. I store in PET bottles. It may be better than D76 for you, but I can't say for sure. The are very close for most films.

2) I find with all my cameras and meters that I get proper shadows by using half box speed. It's easy to test when you scan. If you have significant areas of the image that are just as thin as the area outside the film you need to give it more exposure. Test this by scanning as a positive and make sure you don't clip the shadows or highlights. You shouldn't have issues seeing into dense negatives with any scanner. Just make sure you scan at 16bit and set the black and white points so you don't clip anything.

3) No idea on caffenol as I've never used it. I see no reason to experiment at this time.

4) A long toe film will show less contrast in the shadows, but will preserve details deeper into the shadows (assuming you base the exposure on the .1 over film base and fog). Once you adjust development for the same contrast there is very little difference in tonality, except in the shadows, or if the curve shape is different (shouldered, straight, or upswept). The major difference I see in traditional vs t grain is in the appearance of grain. And a lot of how that looks is due to how the scanner sees the grain. Best thing is to try them both out. I use a lot of TMax400. It scans and prints very well on my equipment.

I try to develop the film so it prints well in the darkroom. It scans well this way, and I then have both options available to me. Scanning at 16bits certainly lets you make pretty big curve adjustments without visible issues.

My Epson (4870) has a real resolution of around 1800 to 2000ppi. This is good for a very good 4 to 6x enlargement. I suspect yours is similar.
 
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