What makes "warmtone" paper warm in tone?

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cirwin2010

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Just something I have been wondering for a while that I can't seem to find an answer on. What makes warmtone paper warm in tone? Is it an effect of higher silver content? Is there some other chemical in the paper that creates the warmth? This question could extend to cooltone paper as well.

Also how does a "warmtone" developer effect the warmth of the paper? Is it a stain of sorts?
 

MattKing

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The silver grains are smaller, and thus the light reflected from them is of a slightly different wavelength.
Warm Tone developers are like fine grain film developers, and help yield those smaller grains.
 

alanrockwood

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Just something I have been wondering for a while that I can't seem to find an answer on. What makes warmtone paper warm in tone? Is it an effect of higher silver content? Is there some other chemical in the paper that creates the warmth? This question could extend to cooltone paper as well.

Also how does a "warmtone" developer effect the warmth of the paper? Is it a stain of sorts?
I'm going to take a wild guess that it is related to the light scattering properties of the silver grains in the developed emulsion. If the scattering of light is color-dependent then you could get some kind of color cast in the prints.

Roughly speaking, this is why the sky is blue. The molecules in the atmosphere scatter light in a wavelength-dependent manner.
 
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cirwin2010

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The silver grains are smaller, and thus the light reflected from them is of a slightly different wavelength.
Warm Tone developers are like fine grain film developers, and help yield those smaller grains.

That is interesting. I have yet to try some warmtone paper, but does this mean the paper is warmer in the darker areas than highlights?
 

MattKing

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That is interesting. I have yet to try some warmtone paper, but does this mean the paper is warmer in the darker areas than highlights?
The warmth is in the image, not the paper itself, so yes the warmth is more visible in the darker areas.
The question is made somewhat more complicated because the colour of the paper stock could, traditionally, be modified as well. Some stocks are/were much colder/bright white, while others are/were much creamier. Creamy paper stock appears warmer.
There is much less variation now in the paper stocks.
 

logan2z

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On the subject of warmtone paper, I've been thinking about trying some Ilford Warmtone Fiber paper recently but have noticed that it's about 25% more expensive than the 'Classic' paper. Is it more expensive to produce?
 

MattKing

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Prices tend to have an inverse relation with volumes.
The most popular papers benefit from more economies of scale.
Paper boxes are awkward to fill and ship, so bigger batches tend to spread the costs more.
The Cooltone papers suffer from the same higher costs.
 

logan2z

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Prices tend to have an inverse relation with volumes.
The most popular papers benefit from more economies of scale.
Paper boxes are awkward to fill and ship, so bigger batches tend to spread the costs more.
The Cooltone papers suffer from the same higher costs.
Makes sense, thanks.
 

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I will say this here too: being new to wet printing takes practice how the process needs to work before taking it into different directions. Consistency of every step and material is critical to see how each affects outcome. Wet printing takes time, practice, and skill to evaluate seen changes. One paper, one developer, same good negative. Once result is approved, print same neg on different paper.

Filling gas tank with 5 different makes at the same time will not tell you which one may have an advantage.
 
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removedacct1

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It used to be that warm tone papers used a chlorobromide emulsion, rather than a straight bromide emulsion, but I don't know if this is still how its done.
 

mshchem

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I've been printing with some of my precious stocks of Forte Polywarmtone paper, it's a wonderful paper. I think that the current Foma Fomatone is a great paper, same is true with Ilford warmtone paper.
I am particularly fond of the Fomatone, it's a magical paper, it responds to gold, selenium, combinations. Looking forward to Adox's new paper, it's going to need to be a damn good.
 

Bikerider

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It used to be that warm tone papers used a chlorobromide emulsion, rather than a straight bromide emulsion, but I don't know if this is still how its done.

Yes, is the short answer

Nothing to do with wavelength of light.

The best by far warm tone paper was Kodak Bromesko, a lovely paper now long gone.
 

Lachlan Young

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It used to be that warm tone papers used a chlorobromide emulsion, rather than a straight bromide emulsion, but I don't know if this is still how its done.

All papers in the last several decades are largely a mix of Chloride, Bromide, Iodide - and modern multigrade papers are very high (potentially 90-95%+) chloride in order to get very specific structures that deliver sufficient contrast for multigrade to work. Ilford's papers are also quite low in iodide which helps the very fast fixing times. Getting from the nominally very slow speed of pure chloride emulsions to the speed of unfiltered MG emulsions presents some significant sensitising challenges. Image colour seems to have been found to be controllable through grain growth techniques rather than using certain heavy metal salts as in the past (lead nitrate) - which affect the size/ shape of the crystal structure as well.

On the subject of warmtone paper, I've been thinking about trying some Ilford Warmtone Fiber paper recently but have noticed that it's about 25% more expensive than the 'Classic' paper. Is it more expensive to produce?

And lower demand. It's made on the same newer/ more efficient controlled grain growth plant as the Delta emulsions.
 
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john_s

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I have found Ilford WT fibre Multigrade to be barely warm even developed in ID-78 "Warm Tone" developer. I like it very much.

I have read that WT papers gradually become less warm during storage before use. I'm in Australia where stock can tend to be a bit old. Maybe that's the reason.
 

mshchem

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Is your stock still fog free? Mine is only suitable for Lith printing now.
Yes, it's perfectly good so far. I've tried 5x7 and 8x10 packages I bought from B&H in the early 2000's. I have a 50 sheet box of 20 x 24, unopened. I guess I need to crack it open. I very rarely print that large. Need to try it. May be good, I have never let it get above 70F.
 

grainyvision

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Warmtone papers are warm traditionally because they use a finer grain emulsion and typically use more chloride halides vs bromide. However, I believe this is mostly a moot point on modern emulsions. The warmest paper I know of still produced is Fomatone Classic Warmtone FB. It's really something special and can still produce brown and even reddish tones in specialized developers, and gives warm olive tones in normal developers... However, everything else is just meh in my experience. The warmest warmtone you typically can get is olive tones, no browns and definitely nothing close to red.

I did a ton of research and formulation tests toward this problem, even making my own emulsion and messing with salt prints. My conclusion is that getting warmtones into browns and reds requires a very specialized emulsion (even very fine grain 100% chloride is not capable without extra effort) to shave the grains down even finer than is possible by home means, while also adding dyes etc to prevent hour+ exposure times in contact printing. So given this and the state of the industry today, all hope is lost right? Well, maybe, maybe not.

Theres a few processes that will produce browns and reds. The most accessible of them is lith printing. The exact chemistry of lith printing even today is not 100% known, but the likely overview of how it works is that it works by the following:

* First there is the "induction period". This will produce soft and very warmtone highlights. It does this by several mechanisms. Potential mechanisms include: polyethylene glycol coating silver grains, rendering them permanently undevelopable or maybe just permanently impartially developed, hydroquinone + bromide effectively "bleaching" the latent image, hydroquinone simply being incapable of penetrating silver grains so only the thin surfaces of the grains get developed.. etc
* Second, the infectious development period. Basically in places where a lot of grains survive and are developable, eventually the hydroquinone takes off in a series of reactions creating radicals which are effectively very short lived fogging developers. These radicals are so short lived that they only really get a chance to accumulate and do any real development where there are a lot of grains to develop (ie, the shadows)

Note that lith printing can also work after bleaching, typically producing much warmer tones than doing it "first pass", and especially when using a copper sulfate + chloride based bleach

Most old warmtone developers defy the common "guidance" to develop to completion. You can confirm this yourself by using a film developer and pulling after just 1-2m, you'll have brown tones but practically no black depth. These developers and this anti-guidance do not work on modern papers though. You'll get very poor contrast and lack of black depth. I'm unsure what changed about modern papers. Many people point to cadmium salts, but many highly experienced chemists say this was not the case. I personally believe it's addenda that was added to make papers more "fool proof", including anti dichroic fogging agents, anti-fogging agents, incorporated developers, and emulsion hardeners. Vintage papers if you've ever worked with them are a lot more fragile than what we work with now.... but honestly it seems like no one really knows what changed. On the otherhand, trying to produce my own emulsions I'm not able to get them to work either, likely due to the emulsion being too primitive.

A more traditional process I've discovered though is using a specialized developer which will basically eat at the silver grains and will keep them in solution (NOT redepositing them, causing dichroic fog). I'm unsure of the exact mechanism, but thiocyanate and thiosulfate will not produce this effect, nor will massive amounts of sulfite. I believe this is because thiocyanate and thiosulfate will "break" the grain allowing them to be more deeply developed into silver metal before the silver halide can be carried away. In my tests, even large amounts inducing dichroic fog will not give warm tones, and rather will just cause black tones to be deeper and also etch away at highlight details. What does work to produce this effect however is ammonia, or in the more easily accessible ammonium salts such as ammonium chloride and ammonium bromide. I believe this works by rounding off developed silver metal, maybe forming silver diamine, while also dissolving silver halides without actually "breaking" the grain allowing it to be more easily developed... However, I've noted that "seasoning" with such a developer is essential, some silver in solution is essential, so maybe it's dissolving and redepositing finer grains of silver somehow?. Ammonium salts decay in alkali to produce ammonia in solution, which easily evaporates. In other words, the effect will be somewhat short lived (tray life of hours, shelf life of days) and the developer will smell of ammonia... Meanwhile, you're also fighting against dichroic fog that is easily produced and trying to ensure that enough silver will be present and developed to produce a good black tone.... Despite this, it's definitely possible to formulate such a developer.

My custom developer GVPX2 will produce such results and is specifically tuned to be as shelf stable as possible. It lasts for a few weeks in a bottle, but will only last a few 1 hour long sessions in a tray before black tones decay too much and the brown warmtone effect vanishes, giving boring olive tones instead. I've not tried to improve the formula much, but I'm sure it could likely be much better. Either way, here it is:

700ml water
"pinch" of sulfite
1.5g metol
30g sodium sulfite (kept low to prevent too rapid of metol regeneration and solvent/replating effect)
5g hydroquinone
50ml triethanolamine 99% (TEA, sourced from photographer's formulary, unsure if critical here)
15ml glycerol (used to reduce ammonia smell and keep ammonia in solution longer)
0.15g benzotriazole (can be increased to slow the developer without otherwise affecting results)
0.5g potassium bromide
1g ammonium thiocyanate
12g sodium metaborate (carbonate will react with ammonia)
8g ammonium chloride
Top to 1L with water
Final pH ~9.75

Exposure should be slightly increased and the print pulled before complete development, typically 2-3m

Example: https://i.imgur.com/I5Z0mFN.jpg on Ilford MGV. Biggest problem is that shadows have fairly drastic reduced contrast (indicating too much "highlight compensating effect" in terms of negative developer), but in person black depth is pretty good and this image definitely matches the daylight appearance
 
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OP

cirwin2010

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Warmtone papers are warm traditionally because they use a finer grain emulsion and typically use more chloride halides vs bromide. However, I believe this is mostly a moot point on modern emulsions. The warmest paper I know of still produced is Fomatone Classic Warmtone FB. It's really something special and can still produce brown and even reddish tones in specialized developers, and gives warm olive tones in normal developers... However, everything else is just meh in my experience. The warmest warmtone you typically can get is olive tones, no browns and definitely nothing close to red.

I did a ton of research and formulation tests toward this problem, even making my own emulsion and messing with salt prints. My conclusion is that getting warmtones into browns and reds requires a very specialized emulsion (even very fine grain 100% chloride is not capable without extra effort) to shave the grains down even finer than is possible by home means, while also adding dyes etc to prevent hour+ exposure times in contact printing. So given this and the state of the industry today, all hope is lost right? Well, maybe, maybe not.

Theres a few processes that will produce browns and reds. The most accessible of them is lith printing. The exact chemistry of lith printing even today is not 100% known, but the likely overview of how it works is that it works by the following:

* First there is the "induction period". This will produce soft and very warmtone highlights. It does this by several mechanisms. Potential mechanisms include: polyethylene glycol coating silver grains, rendering them permanently undevelopable or maybe just permanently impartially developed, hydroquinone + bromide effectively "bleaching" the latent image, hydroquinone simply being incapable of penetrating silver grains so only the thin surfaces of the grains get developed.. etc
* Second, the infectious development period. Basically in places where a lot of grains survive and are developable, eventually the hydroquinone takes off in a series of reactions creating radicals which are effectively very short lived fogging developers. These radicals are so short lived that they only really get a chance to accumulate and do any real development where there are a lot of grains to develop (ie, the shadows)

Note that lith printing can also work after bleaching, typically producing much warmer tones than doing it "first pass", and especially when using a copper sulfate + chloride based bleach

Most old warmtone developers defy the common "guidance" to develop to completion. You can confirm this yourself by using a film developer and pulling after just 1-2m, you'll have brown tones but practically no black depth. These developers and this anti-guidance do not work on modern papers though. You'll get very poor contrast and lack of black depth. I'm unsure what changed about modern papers. Many people point to cadmium salts, but many highly experienced chemists say this was not the case. I personally believe it's addenda that was added to make papers more "fool proof", including anti dichroic fogging agents, anti-fogging agents, incorporated developers, and emulsion hardeners. Vintage papers if you've ever worked with them are a lot more fragile than what we work with now.... but honestly it seems like no one really knows what changed. On the otherhand, trying to produce my own emulsions I'm not able to get them to work either, likely due to the emulsion being too primitive.

A more traditional process I've discovered though is using a specialized developer which will basically eat at the silver grains and will keep them in solution (NOT redepositing them, causing dichroic fog). I'm unsure of the exact mechanism, but thiocyanate and thiosulfate will not produce this effect, nor will massive amounts of sulfite. I believe this is because thiocyanate and thiosulfate will "break" the grain allowing them to be more deeply developed into silver metal before the silver halide can be carried away. In my tests, even large amounts inducing dichroic fog will not give warm tones, and rather will just cause black tones to be deeper and also etch away at highlight details. What does work to produce this effect however is ammonia, or in the more easily accessible ammonium salts such as ammonium chloride and ammonium bromide. I believe this works by rounding off developed silver metal, maybe forming silver diamine, while also dissolving silver halides without actually "breaking" the grain allowing it to be more easily developed... However, I've noted that "seasoning" with such a developer is essential, some silver in solution is essential, so maybe it's dissolving and redepositing finer grains of silver somehow?. Ammonium salts decay in alkali to produce ammonia in solution, which easily evaporates. In other words, the effect will be somewhat short lived (tray life of hours, shelf life of days) and the developer will smell of ammonia... Meanwhile, you're also fighting against dichroic fog that is easily produced and trying to ensure that enough silver will be present and developed to produce a good black tone.... Despite this, it's definitely possible to formulate such a developer.

My custom developer GVPX2 will produce such results and is specifically tuned to be as shelf stable as possible. It lasts for a few weeks in a bottle, but will only last a few 1 hour long sessions in a tray before black tones decay too much and the brown warmtone effect vanishes, giving boring olive tones instead. I've not tried to improve the formula much, but I'm sure it could likely be much better. Either way, here it is:

700ml water
"pinch" of sulfite
1.5g metol
30g sodium sulfite (kept low to prevent too rapid of metol regeneration and solvent/replating effect)
5g hydroquinone
50ml triethanolamine 99% (TEA, sourced from photographer's formulary, unsure if critical here)
15ml glycerol (used to reduce ammonia smell and keep ammonia in solution longer)
0.15g benzotriazole (can be increased to slow the developer without otherwise affecting results)
0.5g potassium bromide
1g ammonium thiocyanate
12g sodium metaborate (carbonate will react with ammonia)
8g ammonium chloride
Top to 1L with water
Final pH ~9.75

Exposure should be slightly increased and the print pulled before complete development, typically 2-3m

Example: https://i.imgur.com/I5Z0mFN.jpg on Ilford MGV. Biggest problem is that shadows have fairly drastic reduced contrast (indicating too much "highlight compensating effect" in terms of negative developer), but in person black depth is pretty good and this image definitely matches the daylight appearance


This is the most in depth post I've seen so far on this forum and it was an interesting read. I many not fully be grasping your description of what modern warmtone paper looks like until I use it myself (same with lith printing). In short it sounds like the paper doesn't venture into the red-browns unless employing special techniques or using a specially formulated developer. I've bookmarked this post to go back to once I've done some experimenting of my own. If or once I get to the point of mixing up my own chemistry I may give your recipe a try. Also sounds like Fomatone Warmtone is the way to go if I want something warmer.

Have you experimented with Ilford's Cooltone paper by chance? You sound knowledgeable and I am curious if you have any insight regarding it. I just tried a print with it last night and I am feeling pretty underwhelmed by it's lack of "coolness." To my eyes it looks pretty neutral and doesn't appear any cooler than the Ilford RC Multigrade V I have been playing with. Maybe it looks cool compared to Ilford's Classic FB paper? I toned it in Selenium 1:9 for about 10 minutes which removed the green tint and maybe gave it slight blue/purple tint to it, but this is not much different than the RC Multigrade V paper I used in the same printing session. I developed the paper in Liquidol.

Also, where do you purchase your chemicals?
 

grainyvision

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This is the most in depth post I've seen so far on this forum and it was an interesting read. I many not fully be grasping your description of what modern warmtone paper looks like until I use it myself (same with lith printing). In short it sounds like the paper doesn't venture into the red-browns unless employing special techniques or using a specially formulated developer. I've bookmarked this post to go back to once I've done some experimenting of my own. If or once I get to the point of mixing up my own chemistry I may give your recipe a try. Also sounds like Fomatone Warmtone is the way to go if I want something warmer.

Have you experimented with Ilford's Cooltone paper by chance? You sound knowledgeable and I am curious if you have any insight regarding it. I just tried a print with it last night and I am feeling pretty underwhelmed by it's lack of "coolness." To my eyes it looks pretty neutral and doesn't appear any cooler than the Ilford RC Multigrade V I have been playing with. Maybe it looks cool compared to Ilford's Classic FB paper? I toned it in Selenium 1:9 for about 10 minutes which removed the green tint and maybe gave it slight blue/purple tint to it, but this is not much different than the RC Multigrade V paper I used in the same printing session. I developed the paper in Liquidol.

Also, where do you purchase your chemicals?

I've not done much cooltone developer formulation just because it's less interesting to me. I've gotten some cool neutrals using ascorbic acid and phenidone, but I'm unsure exactly how cool a true cooltone print even can be. To my eye cooltone FB looks to be MGFB with maybe a bit of addenda like benzotriazole and on an extremely white paper base, where as MGFB is very slightly off-white. But I have no real proof of that of course, they both behave very similarly though.

The grain size of silver is what determines the tone, for the most part. Smaller grains are warmer, larger grains are cooler. In theory that spectrum goes pink -> orange -> red -> brown -> green -> neutral/grey -> blue.. But there's more to it than that like some developers will produce silver "filaments" and some produce clumping. There's a lot to research if you're serious about it, and I feel like I've honestly only scratched the surface. I've found it's more useful to do film developer research toward fine grain developers rather than traditional paper developer formulas such as those listed in Darkroom Cookbook.

I purchase my developers most often on either Amazon/ebay for the easily available ones (metaborate, carbonate, etc), artcraft when they have what I need (only supplier of CD-3/4 I know of, cheaper on average than formulary), and finally failing all else I use Photographer's Formulary. I'm in the US for reference, no idea on sourcing in other countries.
 
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