what is this Ghost?

Ruvy · Oct 8, 2005

something happens in my LF images I don't understand. Hope someone could explain and help solve. Please look at http://i.pbase.com/v3/75/6175/1/50415962.morningaftercrop.jpg

The center post has a Ghost like line on its left. I thought its camera shake but than other elements should have had same which I can't see. Question are what is it, how to get read of it?

This is a crop from a 4X5 nagegative HP4 plus EI400 shot with Caltar II N 150mm, scanned with Epson 4870 neated and reduced by 50%

Paul Sorensen · Oct 8, 2005

The plants on the left have it as well. I think I would assume it was camera shake. It seems to be only on strong highlight areas, indicating that they were the only areas to have enough light to register.

inthedark · Oct 8, 2005

Stupid question, I imagine, but since you haven't specified, is this on the neg or only on the prints? Second question, if it is on the neg, who processes your negs. . .
That doesn't look like camera shake to me, I feel certain the central image would show more signs of shake if the side shows that much issue.

Looks like some of the processing errors I have had in the shop, but since I don't know your situation, I am only suggesting a possibility.

MikeK · Oct 8, 2005

Do you think this could be an artifact of flare? Looks like there is a strong refection off the post.

Mike

Ruvy · Oct 8, 2005

inthedark said:
Stupid question, I imagine, but since you haven't specified, is this on the neg or only on the prints? Second question, if it is on the neg, who processes your negs. . .
That doesn't look like camera shake to me, I feel certain the central image would show more signs of shake if the side shows that much issue.

Looks like some of the processing errors I have had in the shop, but since I don't know your situation, I am only suggesting a possibility.

No stupid questions however can't guaranty wise answers:
1. Yes, its on the negative too
2. I do my own processing in unicolor uniroller
3. there was no print, its direct scan from film

Hope it helps

Ruvy · Oct 8, 2005

MikeK said:
Do you think this could be an artifact of flare? Looks like there is a strong refection off the post.

Mike

I doubt it. This thing to some degree apears on many of my images with htis camera

Ruvy · Oct 8, 2005

Paul Sorensen said:
The plants on the left have it as well. I think I would assume it was camera shake. It seems to be only on strong highlight areas, indicating that they were the only areas to have enough light to register.

Interesting observation and thought thoughit is hard to figure how and why would there be a camera shake. No wind at all, stable tripod and I use cable to shoot. Could it be lens is not seating tight enough (hand srewed this thing in)

glbeas · Oct 8, 2005

Have you checked your lens for separated elements? This looks as if it was caused by an internal reflection.

Marv · Oct 8, 2005

I would be inclined to blame camera movement. A few thoughts; is there a possibility the tripod could move? Maybe a leg that is slipping, a foot pad that slides, a center column that drops, a head that isn't truly tight and can slip? Can the negative move in the holder? Try tapping the holder in the direction that it will be seated. This forces the neative to the bottom of the holder and eliminates the possibility of the negative dropping during the exposure. Is the negative popping during the scan? Does it happen on the first negatives that are scanned or those later in a session when the scanner has heated up? Lot's of questions; so few answers. Good luck my friend!

grahamp · Oct 8, 2005

Looks like rotational camera movement - like a loose tripod screw. What was the exposure time, and did you use a cable release? I'd expect something longer than 1/4 second and a manual release.

The ghost image is uniformly to the left of the highlights, it has well defined boundaries, and appears in denser areas which rules out flare or halation in the film.

vet173 · Oct 8, 2005

I vote for camera movement. All ghost are to the left of highlights the same amount. Looks like camera panned right during exposure.

vet173 · Oct 8, 2005

Are you using a short cable release? When pushing the release you might also be pulling the camera

inthedark · Oct 9, 2005

Ruvy said:
I doubt it. This thing to some degree apears on many of my images with htis camera

Do most of these images have the problem primarily on the left and a similar shape or does that vary? I re-read and wonder also as to the light tightness of your lens contact or some light leak. Anyway, it seems you have noticed the culprit is the camera. An internal reflection, is there anything like a replaced screw that maybe should be painted black?

Just letting my thoughts free roam, hope something helps.

inthedark · Oct 9, 2005

I must be missing something with all of you folks thinking it is camera movement, how can that be when the central image shows absolutely no ghost? Cameras don't just move on the edges, now maybe a lens could be loose and it would only move in a noticable way on the edges, but not the whole camera, then all of the image would be effected. Furthermore it would be evenly effected, not a bright flashy ghost on one side, besides what is the bright flashy ghost a ghost of, there is nothing on the image that it could be a ghost of.

I think you guys just read the word ghost and think he meant it in the usual way.

inthedark · Oct 9, 2005

Okay, never mind me, I decided to open it up in my image editor and fiddle with the tones, and once I eased up on the shadows, I see what you folks are seeing. But just opened in the browser it was quite dark on that side and only could see the flash ghost.

glbeas · Oct 9, 2005

Have you gotten this ghosting with any other lens on that camera?

SchwinnParamount · Oct 9, 2005

How about double exposure? It looks like the curvy leaf on the left center was in one place for hypothetical exposure 1 and moved for hypothetical exposure two. In that case, could your shutter be hanging fire? or did you cock it and fire it accidentally, cock it again and fire it with the cable release?

m. dowdall · Oct 9, 2005

I'm inclined to think inthedark is on the right track about a light leak, pinhole. The ghost would show up more often on shots where you had to wait awhile between pulling the dark slide and firing the shutter. From your pic, it looks like it would be to the left of the lens when looking at the front of the camera. Go into a dark room and shine a strong light from the inside through the back towards the lens with the shutter closed. If you see any light coming out around the lens, this could be your problem.

Michael

Ruvy · Oct 9, 2005

m. dowdall said:
I'm inclined to think inthedark is on the right track about a light leak, pinhole. The ghost would show up more often on shots where you had to wait awhile between pulling the dark slide and firing the shutter. From your pic, it looks like it would be to the left of the lens when looking at the front of the camera. Go into a dark room and shine a strong light from the inside through the back towards the lens with the shutter closed. If you see any light coming out around the lens, this could be your problem.

Michael

Thank you Michael, I have made this test first with a 60 watt lamp and there were no light leaks. than I have inserted a 120watt lamp with a reflector and there was a tiny light showing between two of the leaves of the shutter (probably wrong terminology - I mean the leaves that set apperture size). Is this what you had in mind? Can't tell if it was left or right as I have taken the lens off to check if its all tight and put it not at the same angle it was before though I think you were right about the side too.

Ruvy · Oct 9, 2005

THANK YOU ALL SO VERY MUCH!!!!

It seems like the problem is a light leak in the lens that caused it. THank you all for trying to solve this thing for me. Its most appreciated!!!

Tom Hoskinson · Oct 9, 2005

I don't agree that the ghost images are caused by a light leak. They are too directional - BTW, they show up in central part of the image as well and in the left hand edges of the bright vertical element on the right side of the picture.

I think the ghosting is primarily a rotational camera movement during exposure phenomena - although some flare effects may be contributing.

Nothing seems to be critically sharp anywhere in the image and the exposure runs the gamut from underexposure to overexposure.

The Rodenstock lens you are using should be very sharp with excellent flare control characteristics. Have you checked your camera for flare sources?

BTW:

What camera?

What tripod?

What tripod head?

What film, developer and agitation?

inthedark · Oct 9, 2005

Cool! I'm so glad you found it and that someone supported my theory and knew the way to properly test. . . .let us know how the next set of negs turn out. . . just in case. . . .

Tom Hoskinson · Oct 9, 2005

inthedark said:
Cool! I'm so glad you found it and that someone supported my theory and knew the way to properly test. . . .let us know how the next set of negs turn out. . . just in case. . . .

Sorry inthedark, but I don't belive RUVY has found the root cause of the problem (based on the description of what was found - looks to me like RUVY found the smallest aperture setting for the lens).

Check my previous post.

BTW, one way to check for light leaks and associated pinhole camera effects is to put a loaded filmholder in the camera (camera in a well lighted place), pull the dark slide, DON'T TRIP THE SHUTTER, let the camera sit for a few minutes, then replace the dark slide and develop the film. If there are any light leaks they should show up on the developed film.

inthedark · Oct 10, 2005

pffft!

Ruvy · Oct 10, 2005

Thank you Tom. This light leak is so small but its not the smaller aperture as you have suggested later. The light is showing as a reflection between two shutter leafs (blades?) about half way between lens center and edge. However it is hard for me to believe it too so I am going to place a film, remove the dark slide and see if there is an image (light trace) on the film. This will tell me if it is or isn't it.
In yourreply you are mentioning several things I would like to ask you to clarify. What do you mean by "rotational camera movement"? the word rotational implies to me around certain axis (lens axis? head axis?)? if so, how is it possible when both are locked?

To reply to some of your questions:
1/ This crop is from the upper left quarter of the image
2/ I am using a manfroto tripod and head though can't recall their model name or number. They are not the most stable one can hope for but in similar conditions (i.e. in home or yard without wind or other force to create such movement I have shot some very sharp images with same cable release.

Your observation that the extra wide gamut is right on. I'll send you a pm about it.

what is this Ghost?

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