What is the value of Art school?

DREW WILEY · Feb 22, 2020

An art degree per se has ZERO relation to becoming a serious artist. You might need it to teach academic art. And you might find other aspects of it rewarding. Community colleges might even be better, and cost little. My aunt had four phD's, taught Art History and technique at major universities, had her own work in major museums in both the US and Europe, and told me not to waste my time in any formal art program. Best advice I ever had. She was offered teaching roles because her art was already recognized, and she picked up the degrees as a side hobby afterwards. That's the way it should be; otherwise an art degree is just going through the motions. Some successful photographers adapt well to academia, many don't. I think a good art history or appreciation class can be helpful. But you don't need an expensive University tuition to do that. A LF forum member, Preston, was involved in the Sonora Community College program. He's probably retired now, but might still be on the LF listing. Anyone who is a Sonora Pass photo addict has good credentials in my book.

removed account4 · Feb 22, 2020

DREW WILEY said:
An art degree per se has ZERO relation to becoming a serious artist.

while this might be true
there is something to be said for taking classes with instructors and students that push you to uncomfortable places so you get better
at what you want to do. not everything is self taught on short expeditions ( or long ones ) to favorite places, or personal spaces
or portraits of places or things or people that one is used to. while your statement might have some bearing on you ( and many others ) depending on what
"serious artist" actually means because it means different things to differnet people, it has a lot to do with being challenged, forced to learn
and understand, learn new things, new people and expanding one's horizons.

DREW WILEY · Feb 22, 2020

I never met an art teacher who didn't bore me, with the exception of my aunt, who, despite her fame, did her best not to leverage me. Like I already hinted, I did enjoy certain Art History lectures. But I've always done far better at self-learning than any formal program, and realize that's not the case with everyone. I just find a lot of Art Academia to be highly pretentious. And I've had museum people poking fun at their own highbrow profession right at my own dinner table. Just another paycheck. That's why I avoided art as a formal career. I don't want anyone telling me what to do or how to do it. That would defeat the whole purpose.

Dave Ludwig · Feb 23, 2020

All good points of view and confirms it is something personal and what you want to get out of it is up to you. I have a BFA and did not do it to learn technical aspects but instead to refine my sense of vision by studying about all those who are and came before in all mediums. Jokingly when people ask about the meaning of life I say "The moment you are born you start the process of dying, what you do between is up to you".

Pieter12 · Feb 23, 2020

It seems to me that Community Colleges tend to be more like trade schools...teaching technique and practical aspects, geared more to careers in commercial photography and commercial art, less about fine art.

KenS · Feb 23, 2020

BradS said:
I am considering enrolling in an art degree program at the local community college and I'm just kinda trying to decide what my expectations are and what they might reasonably be. I'm wondering about the non obvious benefits one gets from taking a college degree vs being self taught...

So, did you go to art school ?
In what ways did you benefit ?

Thanks in advance.

Brad,
My PhD-type daughter challenged me to 'acquire' my BFA after I was 'downsized' from my position at the nearby
Agriculture Canada Research Centre in 1997 (during which I had already earned "Board Certification" as a 'specialist' and received some 'advanced standing' for so doing... and with some 60+ years under the dark-cloth
They had just closed all but one of their 'wet darkrooms' ... (for those already part way through their course) and gone ALL digital (fellow classmates were forking out $10 per square foot for their prints (and were somewhat upset that I was less than willing (think 'out-right refusal') to so do.
I don't really believe that I actually 'benefited' since I (being honest) knew more about the craft that is required to 'support one's artistic endeavors than any of the faculty and T.A.s.
Ot was 'somewhat pathetic' to have to listen to those with little-to-no 'practical' experience but lots of 'reading' skills.... It was almost enough to drive this old man to the 'drink'.. It got so bad at one point I had to have a 'wee chat' with a department member about "quitting' since I didn't 'need' the degree... and she indicated that she "just loved' what I was 'producing' ( I was printing usinhthe 'archaic print processes' and convinced me to 'Hang in' to the end. It was 'not that easy' but I did... and got my 'cap,gown and 'piece of paper' at the ripe old age of 74 years

Ken

jtk · Feb 23, 2020

Go hiking.

If for your own reasons want to learn "photography" just do it. Its easy. If you want to learn the craft find a pro (not in Sonora) and beg to assist. If you're focused on the art, study something else and live the life. And read everything you can find about Avedon.

BradS · Feb 23, 2020

DREW WILEY said:
An art degree per se has ZERO relation to becoming a serious artist. You might need it to teach academic art. And you might find other aspects of it rewarding. Community colleges might even be better, and cost little. My aunt had four phD's, taught Art History and technique at major universities, had her own work in major museums in both the US and Europe, and told me not to waste my time in any formal art program. Best advice I ever had. She was offered teaching roles because her art was already recognized, and she picked up the degrees as a side hobby afterwards. That's the way it should be; otherwise an art degree is just going through the motions. Some successful photographers adapt well to academia, many don't. I think a good art history or appreciation class can be helpful. But you don't need an expensive University tuition to do that. A LF forum member, Preston, was involved in the Sonora Community College program. He's probably retired now, but might still be on the LF listing. Anyone who is a Sonora Pass photo addict has good credentials in my book.

Ah yeah, Preston. I have run into him at Columbia State park a few times....but it has been years since I've seen him. IIRC, he worked at the fire station at Columbia College...might have even been fire captain ? It's been a long time.

dpurdy · Feb 23, 2020

I learned a tremendous amount when I went to a Photography school. I then went to art school and learned about ceramics drawing and design but mostly I learned different ways of seeing and thinking. Worth it to me. Wouldn't be for everyone.

warden · Feb 23, 2020

KenS said:
... and got my 'cap,gown and 'piece of paper' at the ripe old age of 74 years

That's excellent.

btaylor · Feb 23, 2020

Pieter12 said:
It seems to me that Community Colleges tend to be more like trade schools...teaching technique and practical aspects, geared more to careers in commercial photography and commercial art, less about fine art.

Good point. One of the strengths of Community College is to prepare students for employment after graduation in the trades. The technical requirements in the photo classes I took at CC were much more stringent than at my 4 year liberal arts school decades earlier— that can be a good thing. In general I think it is good to have something approaching technical mastery of your medium in art. I don’t know if you all consider cinematography to be art (I think it can be) but a DP from one of my CCs did get the Oscar for Cinematography one year, so I wouldn’t discount it too much.

alanrockwood · Feb 23, 2020

For what it is worth, I had four siblings (two of whom are currently living). Because their life situations were different from the boys I will not discuss my sisters, but of my two brothers and I, the most financially successful was the one who got a BA in illustration and eventually founded an advertising agency. His agency piled up an enormous number of awards for creativity. The least financially successful of the three of us is the one who got a BS in business. (This is not a reflection of his quality as a human being, just his financial situation.) As for me, with my PhD in chemistry, I am financially somewhere between my two brothers. I guess the take home lesson from this is that it is hard to make general statements about the financial rewards of various majors.

As far as personal development is concerned, my guess is that art school has a lot to offer, but not being in that field I can't offer a firsthand opinion.

By the way, based on the experiences of several art majors I have known, art is one of the most demanding majors in terms of study and practice time. I think music is in the same category as art time-wise.

Vaughn · Feb 24, 2020

If you need someone to power thru any creative project, a qualified Art Degree holder (except for Art History degree holders) can be one's best bet.

Ian Grant · Feb 24, 2020

Vaughn said:
If you need someone to power thru any creative project, a qualified Art Degree holder (except for Art History degree holders) can be one's best bet.

Perhaps the most important word there is project, and then creative. Any degree program Bachelors, Masters etc will contain a portion of personal project work, less so in a Bachelors but heavily in a Masters.

This "Project" approach is part of all degree programs regardless of subject, so anyone doing a science degree has to do a research project usually in their final year, and in other fields dissertations are a requirement involving reading and research.

Many years ago (mid 1980') I found a Michael Freeman book "Achieving Photographic Style", it wasn't the typical" How To Do It! book rather a couple of pages each on a series of well known international photographers and how they worked and they all used the concept of projects, I was already working that way but it reinforced my approach.

Over the years I've given a number of talks at camera clubs, and similar groups of photographers (various UK Monochrome Groups) and I'm always surprised at the end to be told how interesting it is to see a project based approach.

That comes to the "power thru any creative project" because you set the parameters for a project at the outset you can concentrate on making images in a more focussed way, it is necessary to take stock every now and again and you might fine tune or expand the parameters, Because you're putting most of your energies into a project you find you take few if at random images, but those you do maybe the spark of another project.

Ian

Alan Edward Klein · Feb 24, 2020

My friend who was a commercial artist all his life, a natural artist, taught art and drawing but also took art courses when he retired. He once told me, "You know Al, you can't believe what I learned. There was stuff I never knew all my life that I just learned in retirement. Amazing."

Alan Edward Klein · Feb 24, 2020

Ian Grant said:
Perhaps the most important word there is project, and then creative. Any degree program Bachelors, Masters etc will contain a portion of personal project work, less so in a Bachelors but heavily in a Masters.

This "Project" approach is part of all degree programs regardless of subject, so anyone doing a science degree has to do a research project usually in their final year, and in other fields dissertations are a requirement involving reading and research.

Many years ago (mid 1980') I found a Michael Freeman book "Achieving Photographic Style", it wasn't the typical" How To Do It! book rather a couple of pages each on a series of well known international photographers and how they worked and they all used the concept of projects, I was already working that way but it reinforced my approach.

Over the years I've given a number of talks at camera clubs, and similar groups of photographers (various UK Monochrome Groups) and I'm always surprised at the end to be told how interesting it is to see a project based approach.

That comes to the "power thru any creative project" because you set the parameters for a project at the outset you can concentrate on making images in a more focussed way, it is necessary to take stock every now and again and you might fine tune or expand the parameters, Because you're putting most of your energies into a project you find you take few if at random images, but those you do maybe the spark of another project.

Ian

Ian, your comments on projects interests me. I'm retired and have plenty of time. I'm into landscapes. But I often wonder what I really want to shoot. I wait for "good light", then get busy with other stuff and miss it.

Project based photography intrigues me. It reminds me of when I come back from vacations and put together a slideshow, sometime incoulduing short video clip besides stills. I try to tell a story of the trip with music, credits, titles, commentary, etc. The vacation and travel provides a focus of what to photograph. The photography taken during the trip has the thought it's going into a travel trip slideshow. So I make sure i shoot all the shots that make up the story, locations, signs, etc. I find this kind of shooting very satisfactory because there a goal in mind. A story to tell. The shooting process has the end result in mind. Although no real vacation on my Youtube page (my wife doesn;t like it on a public airwave). There are some stories that I've told particularly the Coney Island, Scuba and Fire Academy ones.https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCDzogShfhgCHh2rVvEsFOJQ

What kind of projects do you do or recommend at home? What parameters do you set for yourself? How do you present them?

CropDusterMan · Feb 24, 2020

I think a degree is a huge asset in todays world, whether it be in art or something like science.
It opens doors. So, for 4 years, I was the first assistant to a very successful editorial portrait photographer in
NY. He would bring on an intern every summer, and I interviewed them, going through portfolio's and trying
to see if they'd fit with the mix in terms of work ethic and personality. Most of these youngsters were grads
of various photo programs, art programs etc, and overall, I was shocked and disappointed at how little they knew
about the technical side of photography and lighting.
As someone who had worked in photojournalism before, I had a more narrow way of looking at things then.
To me at that time, photography and the assignments we did were about solving problems, and much of it
was production related. In time, I began to notice that all of these interns had something special about them,
and it was their background in having studied art and art history. I was teaching them the day to day production
skills and lighting and such, and I became fascinated with their backgrounds as students.

Education is ALWAYS a good thing in life. I highly recommend getting a degree, and then go and assist in NY
for a couple years. Have you looked into schools like RIT? Art history will surely be a component in your studies.
A friend of mine is a professor there and teaches the commercial photography component.

Good luck,
Jason

Alan Edward Klein · Feb 24, 2020

CropDusterMan said:
I think a degree is a huge asset in todays world, whether it be in art or something like science.
It opens doors. So, for 4 years, I was the first assistant to a very successful editorial portrait photographer in
NY. He would bring on an intern every summer, and I interviewed them, going through portfolio's and trying
to see if they'd fit with the mix in terms of work ethic and personality. Most of these youngsters were grads
of various photo programs, art programs etc, and overall, I was shocked and disappointed at how little they knew
about the technical side of photography and lighting.
As someone who had worked in photojournalism before, I had a more narrow way of looking at things then.
To me at that time, photography and the assignments we did were about solving problems, and much of it
was production related. In time, I began to notice that all of these interns had something special about them,
and it was their background in having studied art and art history. I was teaching them the day to day production
skills and lighting and such, and I became fascinated with their backgrounds as students.

Education is ALWAYS a good thing in life. I highly recommend getting a degree, and then go and assist in NY
for a couple years. Have you looked into schools like RIT? Art history will surely be a component in your studies.
A friend of mine is a professor there and teaches the commercial photography component.

Good luck,
Jason

How did that help them in their job with you? What qualities did it bring out?

DonJ · Feb 24, 2020

KenS said:
Brad,
My PhD-type daughter challenged me to 'acquire' my BFA after I was 'downsized' from my position at the nearby
Agriculture Canada Research Centre in 1997 (during which I had already earned "Board Certification" as a 'specialist' and received some 'advanced standing' for so doing... and with some 60+ years under the dark-cloth
They had just closed all but one of their 'wet darkrooms' ... (for those already part way through their course) and gone ALL digital (fellow classmates were forking out $10 per square foot for their prints (and were somewhat upset that I was less than willing (think 'out-right refusal') to so do.
I don't really believe that I actually 'benefited' since I (being honest) knew more about the craft that is required to 'support one's artistic endeavors than any of the faculty and T.A.s.
Ot was 'somewhat pathetic' to have to listen to those with little-to-no 'practical' experience but lots of 'reading' skills.... It was almost enough to drive this old man to the 'drink'.. It got so bad at one point I had to have a 'wee chat' with a department member about "quitting' since I didn't 'need' the degree... and she indicated that she "just loved' what I was 'producing' ( I was printing usinhthe 'archaic print processes' and convinced me to 'Hang in' to the end. It was 'not that easy' but I did... and got my 'cap,gown and 'piece of paper' at the ripe old age of 74 years

Ken

If you did not benefit, what was the purpose? Was "craft" the only focus of the BFA process?

neeksgeek · Feb 24, 2020

I asked this question when in college, and was told that I only needed an MFA if I planned to teach. So, since my plan was to be a photographer and digital imaging expert, I got my BS degree in Industrial Technology and an MA in Graphic Arts. The irony is that these days my main source of income is from teaching at community colleges.

KenS · Feb 24, 2020

BradS said:
I am considering enrolling in an art degree program at the local community college and I'm just kinda trying to decide what my expectations are and what they might reasonably be. I'm wondering about the non obvious benefits one gets from taking a college degree vs being self taught...

So, did you go to art school ?
In what ways did you benefit ?

Yes.. I went to University (a 'challenge offered me after my 'retirement')... as a means of 'staying out of the rocking chair and 'away' from daytime television.

You are given an opportunity to 'impress' the Prof. I believe it assists you to "focus" (no pun intended) on meeting 'given' deadlines... a 'something' (like self discipline) you will often run into when you go out into 'the big wide world of commerce') after you receive your cap, gown.and 'That piece of paper'

Fortunately, I believe I already had acquired the required discipline after so many years as "Professional"....where the ability to meet given 'deadlines' was essential...often using (unpaid) overtime work.

Ken

BradS · Feb 24, 2020

You seem pretty angry and bitter about the whole experience...

Arthurwg · Feb 24, 2020

True, the cost of an MFA degree is rarely worth the return you can expect. The market for MFA grads, either as teachers or gallery artists, is over saturated. The stars have to align in a marvelous way for either of those career paths to bear fruit. Still, it helps if you are actually very talented and you go to one of the best schools, like RISD. A good art school will help you choose an art-making strategy, and teach you the necessary technique to achieve your goals. It will help you to talk the talk, and walk the walk. You can also make good connections, which are necessary. Then move to NYC or LA and start networking. But while you are at it, get a minor in accounting.

DREW WILEY · Feb 24, 2020

Well, I did things my way, but do know a handful of (eventually) successful artists who went the full academic route. During the Renaissance someone would apprentice with a master painter or sculptor for 20 years before branching off on their own. Nowadays the first mandatory course leading to an MFA is Dumpster Diving 101 behind the Pizza joint nearest the campus, then finally getting a real job delivering pizzas until your student loan it paid off, and by that time you'll be eligible for Social Security and Medicare.

Pieter12 · Feb 24, 2020

The art world is a difficult one in which to make a living. Sure there are the super-stars whose work hauls in $$$, but they mostly burn out quickly. A lot of the high prices paid for art never goes to the artist. The gallery takes half, the artist in most cases gets zilch for resales if he or she is lucky enough to have made work that appreciates in value. Having a degree means nothing in the fine art world--it's about the work and exposure. The knowledge, skill and connections that can be made in art school can be easier to acquire there than on one's own. Having a degree does carry weight when applying for grants and residencies, something that can be a major contributor to a fine artists' income and success. Apprenticeship/working as an assistant can give you great practical experience, but tends to be limited to the style, technique and methods of the photographers that you work for and might not be as broad or applicable to other photographic approaches.

What is the value of Art school?

did you get an art degree?

AA degree

BA degree

MA degree

DREW WILEY

removed account4

DREW WILEY

Dave Ludwig

Pieter12

KenS

jtk

BradS

dpurdy

warden

btaylor

alanrockwood

Vaughn

Ian Grant

Alan Edward Klein

Alan Edward Klein

CropDusterMan

Alan Edward Klein

DonJ

neeksgeek

KenS

BradS

Arthurwg

DREW WILEY

Pieter12

What is the value of Art school?

did you get an art degree?

AA degree

BA degree

MA degree

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