What is metering in camera?

wiltw · Sep 23, 2020

AgX said:
Dylan, the problem today is that the internet with its many advices and even rages easily can puzzle a beginner.
Looking back to the old days, I would say there are these reasons for setting at a camera a different film speed:

-) At cameras that do not yield a true exposure correction switch the film speed dial is the means to do so instead.

One might do so

-) when the scene luminosity is different from the "average grey" (for example when white skin being dominant in the metering field, then a about +1 stop correction is needed, the film speed setting thus reduced by 1 stop, or with people in snow, then even more)

-) when using filters (to keep a grey object still rendered at same density)

-) when homeprocessing b&w films, as often developers other than the standard D-76 in effect will change film speed

-) when using long stored films

Other reasons to rate color film differently from its official speed rating (ISO)...

Using Velvia (ISO 50) as a specific example that was rated differently by most photographers...ISO 50 rating was generally felt to yield a bit too dense (dark) a photo. So most photographers came to rate Velvia with EI 40 rather than its official rating, so more exposure (due to the lower rated speed) yields a brighter (less dense) photo. While most photographers also know that more exposure = less saturated colors in transparencies, Velvia already had very highly saturated colors, so giving more exposure simply made the colors slightly less saturated and a bit more 'real'.
Using most color negative films (like Fuji NPS, ISO 160) it is known that underexposing it will cause the shadow areas to become 'muddy'. So many pros might rate NPS at EI 100 rather than ISO 160, so there is less tendency to underexpose in the shadow areas, and become muddy. Since most color neg film is very tolerant of overexposure, rating it lower does little harm.

AgX · Sep 23, 2020

Yes, but these are rather tricks for the very advanced.
So my idea was to advise a beginner to resort with colour films to the box speed, except for the cases I mentioned.

wiltw · Sep 23, 2020

dylan77 said:
1/3 seems so small though to see a real difference

You can very readily see 1/3 EV differences when shooting color transparency.
Shooting color neg with 1/3 EV differences can be rather difficult to see, because when the negs are printed by automated printers, all the prints will have similar density (brightness), and the 1/3 EV difference visible in the neg is highly masked by the printing process.

wiltw · Sep 23, 2020

AgX said:
Yes, but these are rather tricks for the very advanced.
So my idea was to advise a beginner to resort with colour films to the box speed, except for the cases I mentioned.

A difference of opinion...I do not see the use of EI in lieu of rated ISO to be at all 'advanced'. If one shoots a roll of film and all shots uniformly seem to be too dense, the use of Exposure Compensation (or the use of re-rating the speed, which accomplishes the same thing) does not seem at all 'advanced'.

Admittely, knowing the effect of exposure on color saturation is something not readily expected in rank beginners.

OP asked 'Why would you...?' and I simply provided some more examples of Why.

dylan77 · Sep 23, 2020

wiltw said:
Other reasons to rate color film differently from its official speed rating (ISO)...

Using Velvia (ISO 50) as a specific example that was rated differently by most photographers...ISO 50 rating was generally felt to yield a bit too dense (dark) a photo. So most photographers came to rate Velvia with EI 40 rather than its official rating, so more exposure (due to the lower rated speed) yields a brighter (less dense) photo. While most photographers also know that more exposure = less saturated colors in transparencies, Velvia already had very highly saturated colors, so giving more exposure simply made the colors slightly less saturated and a bit more 'real'.

Using most color negative films (like Fuji NPS, ISO 160) it is known that underexposing it will cause the shadow areas to become 'muddy'. So many pros might rate NPS at EI 100 rather than ISO 160, so there is less tendency to underexpose in the shadow areas, and become muddy. Since most color neg film is very tolerant of overexposure, rating it lower does little harm.

Great advice thanks!

removed account4 · Sep 23, 2020

dylan77 said:
I am relatively new to film and I’ve always put the film in and then just meter, to the correct exposure through the camera. So the needle is in the middle of what I see in camera.

I have recently come across some videos however that people say for example: For portra 400 I usually meter at 320 or box speed, or Fuji 400 rated at 400.

What does this actually mean. Box speed would be 400, though Is metering and rated something to do with exposure compensation? Is this the same as like 1 stop increase? Thanks

dylan77

I have several cameras with but in meters. some are better than others; I've got a few handheld meters, some are better than others, and I do sunny 11 too, its ez and a no brainer. if you plan on using a film more than once or 2x and get to know how it looks in a variety of conditions, and hope to use the same lab to process it ( if it is color / b+w and you don't do it yourself ) what I typically do is figure out what the camera likes. Some people get their shutter's looked at and tweaked/calibrated regularly, some people not so much. so you set your meter at box speed, then bracket your exposures by 1 stop each. send to the lab, look at the negatives look at the prints the lab gave you and see what you like the best. then shoot another roll at whatever that was - box speed, or one stop over / under, and see how it looks. if you process your film yourself do the same thing but with a 3 rolls ( at least for b+w - I have never developed color ) and find out from the manufacturer's notes what they suggest to process x film at ( for x mins ). develop 1 roll as instructed, 1 for 30% more, 1 for 30% less (so you are bracketing your exposures AND development). then decide which of the 3 situations you like the best, after you can enlarge or scan or pay your lab to make you prints to see what you like the best. ISO values given to films are typically done in a science lab setting, with a standard developer and standard developing technique and a camera that 1/60thS is exactly that and the meter used works perfectly, there are no questions. I know my camera isn't their camera and shutters aren't calibrated, I know my scene is not a Macbeth color chart or perfectly lit studio still life, I know my development technique isn't the same as the person ( or automated machine ) at Kodak or Ilford or Fuji, or ...and my film isn't fresh off the roller. with photography nothing is set in stone, there are a lot of variables, and its best to figure out where you technique fits in and expose your film the way your technique requires....
You could set your meter to 400 and send to the lab, or develop it yourself using times and temperatures given to you by the manufacturer and be perfectly happy, but if you can and have the time, money and interest why not see it it is 1 size fits all ( cause sometimes its not ). PLUS you get to see the different relationships between light film, developer, + light film>paper developer+ scan film print in action..

don't forget to have fun!
John

dylan77 · Sep 23, 2020

jnantz said:
dylan77

I have several cameras with but in meters. some are better than others; I've got a few handheld meters, some are better than others, and I do sunny 11 too, its ez and a no brainer.

I’ve looked at sunny 16 and different apertures depending on the weather. When you do this depending on conditions do you just change the aperture, And leave the iso-as it is? Ive seen various opinions on for example a Porta 400, where it’s set at 500, Then it doesn’t change. Only the aperture depending on the weather.

if you plan on using a film more than once or 2x and get to know how it looks in a variety of conditions, and hope to use the same lab to process it ( if it is color / b+w and you don't do it yourself ) what I typically do is figure out what the camera likes. Some people get their shutter's looked at and tweaked/calibrated regularly, some people not so much. so you set your meter at box speed, then bracket your exposures by 1 stop each. send to the lab, look at the negatives look at the prints the lab gave you and see what you like the best. then shoot another roll at whatever that was - box speed, or one stop over / under, and see how it looks.

Sounds good.

if you process your film yourself do the same thing but with a 3 rolls ( at least for b+w - I have never developed color ) and find out from the manufacturer's notes what they suggest to process x film at ( for x mins ). develop 1 roll as instructed, 1 for 30% more, 1 for 30% less (so you are bracketing your exposures AND development). then decide which of the 3 situations you like the best, after you can enlarge or scan or pay your lab to make you prints to see what you like the best. ISO values given to films are typically done in a science lab setting, with a standard developer and standard developing technique and a camera that 1/60thS is exactly that and the meter used works perfectly, there are no questions. I know my camera isn't their camera and shutters aren't calibrated, I know my scene is not a Macbeth color chart or perfectly lit studio still life, I know my development technique isn't the same as the person ( or automated machine ) at Kodak or Ilford or Fuji, or ...and my film isn't fresh off the roller. with photography nothing is set in stone, there are a lot of variables, and its best to figure out where you technique fits in and expose your film the way your technique requires....
You could set your meter to 400 and send to the lab, or develop it yourself using times and temperatures given to you by the manufacturer and be perfectly happy, but if you can and have the time, money and interest why not see it it is 1 size fits all ( cause sometimes its not ). PLUS you get to see the different relationships between light film, developer, + light film>paper developer+ scan film print in action..

don't forget to have fun!
John

Thanks for the advice

TheFlyingCamera · Sep 23, 2020

As others have said, if you're going to deviate from the manufacturer's stated film speed, you need to have a good reason. Either you're trying to compensate for extreme lighting conditions (say a scene with a brightness range beyond the latitude of the film to handle - either too much or too little contrast) or you have performed a personal speed test and determined that you get the proper tones recorded on the film at a different than box speed based on the combination of a given film, camera, lens, and development regime. This mostly applies to black and white film. As previously mentioned, color negative films in general have a very wide latitude for producing acceptable results. Many people will choose with color negative films to err on the side of mild (say 1 stop) overexposure because to a point, overexposure with a negative film will help with shadow detail and overall color saturation. Color transparency films, in general, are much less tolerant and the overall guidance is to expose precisely (within 1/4 stop, or better). If you must err with a color transparency, choose to underexpose, because if you over-expose, you will lose your highlights and unlike a negative, you can't burn them in to bring them back down. Once they're gone, they're gone. One partial exception to this is Fuji Velvia - Velvia has such strongly saturated (to the point some would say unnatural) colors that many people will choose to give Velvia a 1/3 stop overexposure to help tame the colors a bit without blowing out the highlights.

pentaxuser · Sep 24, 2020

Well dylan77 is learning a lot from this thread I feel which is good but the nub of his quest is to learn how to explain to others, namely his lab , how they can reproduce what he gave us as examples of what he is hoping for in his opening post.

It may be that we feel his is a quest for the Holy Grail based on what we know but advice to, for instance, stick to box speed and don't try to run before you can walk may not be helpful.

A summary, if such a thing is possible, of what he might try to do in descending order of success to achieve what he is looking for, might be helpful. In recent times more than in the past my impression is that newcomers to film expect different things than did the "newcomers of old" and while some will never accept that it is a Holy Grail they seek, no matter what we say, others will respond to help in a form of learning by doing. They need to find out for themselves by a form of structured experiment

pentaxuser

runswithsizzers · Sep 24, 2020

@dylan77 - Off topic, but some of your replies are hard to read because they are getting intermingled with the text you are quoting. That is, your replies are often displayed as italicized text on a light gray background, exactly the same as the text you are quoting, and the reader cannot easily tell which part was written by you and which part by the person being quoted.

The way to avoid this is to understand a little bit of HTML code, which is the software the forum uses to format the text you see here. Whenever you use "Quote" or "Reply with quote" notice there are two blocks of text surrounded by a pair of brackets "[" and "]" One set of brackets is at the start of the quoted text, and starts out as "QUOTE="...... The other set of brackes is at the end of the quoted text and ends as "..../QUOTE" Any comment you want to make should be either before - or after - both pairs of bracketed quotes, and never between them. Make sense?

Sirius Glass · Sep 24, 2020

Read the manual, Nikon F100 has ways to change the ISO.

wiltw · Sep 24, 2020

pentaxuser said:
Well dylan77 is learning a lot from this thread I feel which is good but the nub of his quest is to learn how to explain to others, namely his lab , how they can reproduce what he gave us as examples of what he is hoping for in his opening post.

And if THAT is the OP goal, my answer is simply,

Take a shot of a gray card or Macbeth in each different lighting circumstance, before taking the 'real' shots, and instruct the lab 'Make the gray card or Macbeth perfectly neutral and of the proper tonality in the print, and expose the rest of the shots in the same scene with that exact filter pack!'

dylan77 · Sep 25, 2020

TheFlyingCamera said:
As others have said, if you're going to deviate from the manufacturer's stated film speed, you need to have a good reason. Either you're trying to compensate for extreme lighting conditions (say a scene with a brightness range beyond the latitude of the film to handle - either too much or too little contrast) or you have performed a personal speed test and determined that you get the proper tones recorded on the film at a different than box speed based on the combination of a given film, camera, lens, and development regime. This mostly applies to black and white film. As previously mentioned, color negative films in general have a very wide latitude for producing acceptable results. Many people will choose with color negative films to err on the side of mild (say 1 stop) overexposure because to a point, overexposure with a negative film will help with shadow detail and overall color saturation. Color transparency films, in general, are much less tolerant and the overall guidance is to expose precisely (within 1/4 stop, or better). If you must err with a color transparency, choose to underexpose, because if you over-expose, you will lose your highlights and unlike a negative, you can't burn them in to bring them back down. Once they're gone, they're gone. One partial exception to this is Fuji Velvia - Velvia has such strongly saturated (to the point some would say unnatural) colors that many people will choose to give Velvia a 1/3 stop overexposure to help tame the colors a bit without blowing out the highlights.

Hi. If I have a DX code on my camera that I can set in my iso, Which is box speed, How would I go about increasing exposure by 2/3 or one-stop. I’m assuming that with my internal meter, rotating the dial so it’s 2/3 or 1 stop over exposed is possibly not the right thing. Or do you think it’s best not to set the DX code. Thanks

AgX · Sep 25, 2020

dylan77 said:
If I have a DX code on my camera that I can set in my iso.

No camera has a DX code. The film cassette has it and a camera with a respective reading feature reads that and uses that ISO data as base for its metering. Cameras which yield some manual setting offer a manual override of this and onbe can set an ISO film speed of once own choice. Either as the cassette does not bear a DX code or as one wants to use a film speed setting other than the box speed.

Maybe that is what you meant, but I find your wording puzzling.

dylan77 · Sep 25, 2020

AgX said:
No camera has a DX code. The film cassette has it and a camera with a respective reading feature reads that and uses that ISO data as base for its metering. Cameras which yield some manual setting offer a manual override of this and onbe can set an ISO film speed of once own choice. Either as the cassette does not bear a DX code or as one wants to use a film speed setting other than the box speed.

Maybe that is what you meant, but I find your wording puzzling.

I’m using portra 400 which has DX coding, Though I’ve noticed if I use this I can’t change my iso. I’m thinking it’s best not to use it

AgX · Sep 25, 2020

If a camera that reads the DX code has no override of that feature, it still has a default setting that it uses if a cassette has no DX-coding. And this typically is ISO 100. Thus by covering the DX code on any coded cassette by isolating tape you get that default setting.

Chan Tran · Sep 25, 2020

AgX said:
If a camera that reads the DX code has no override of that feature, it still has a default setting that it uses if a cassette has no DX-coding. And this typically is ISO 100. Thus by covering the DX code on any coded cassette by isolating tape you get that default setting.

If the camera doesn't have DX overide chances are that it doesn't have the exposure compensation either. Which make shooting other than box speed is difficult. You can buy the sticker for any speed but then many of these cameras only set their ISO at full stop.

TheFlyingCamera · Sep 25, 2020

dylan77 said:
Hi. If I have a DX code on my camera that I can set in my iso, Which is box speed, How would I go about increasing exposure by 2/3 or one-stop. I’m assuming that with my internal meter, rotating the dial so it’s 2/3 or 1 stop over exposed is possibly not the right thing. Or do you think it’s best not to set the DX code. Thanks

Which camera are you using? That would help in troubleshooting this for you.

pentaxuser · Sep 25, 2020

TheFlyingCamera said:
Which camera are you using? That would help in troubleshooting this for you.

Excellent point and one I made in #20 to dylan77 but he may have overlooked it. So I second your post. So what is the camera you have got, dylan77 and did you see my recommendation to check if the Butkus site has a copy of the manual? Always worth having a manual

pentaxuser

TheFlyingCamera · Sep 25, 2020

pentaxuser said:
Excellent point and one I made in #20 to dylan77 but he may have overlooked it. So I second your post. So what is the camera you have got, dylan77 and did you see my recommendation to check if the Butkus site has a copy of the manual? Always worth having a manual

pentaxuser

He buried the response to that question inside a quote of someone's post, which is why we didn't see it. He has a Nikon F-100. It is very easy to change the film speed on that camera to a manually set value. Hold down the ISO button on the top deck and turn the main command dial (the one on the rear of the top deck, under one's right thumb), to change the film speed. The setting will default to DX, but you can override it and set it manually to any film speed value between ISO 6 and ISO 6400, in 1/3 stop increments.

wiltw · Sep 25, 2020

Setting ISO 160 instead of real rating ISO 100 results in -2/3EV decrease in exposure
Dialing in EC -2/3EV while using real rating ISO 100 results in -2/3EV decrease in exposure

pentaxuser · Sep 25, 2020

Thanks TheFlyingCamera. Based on his #40 dylan77 appears to think that once he puts any film with DX coding into the camera he can't change the ISO speed. Hopefully we have cleared that up

The F100 is a very sophisticated camera with lots of features. I'd consider it essential to get an instruction manual for such a camera.

pentaxuser

Sirius Glass · Sep 25, 2020

Sirius Glass said:
Read the manual, Nikon F100 has ways to change the ISO.

dylan77 said:
I’m using portra 400 which has DX coding, Though I’ve noticed if I use this I can’t change my iso. I’m thinking it’s best not to use it

TheFlyingCamera said:
He buried the response to that question inside a quote of someone's post, which is why we didn't see it. He has a Nikon F-100. It is very easy to change the film speed on that camera to a manually set value. Hold down the ISO button on the top deck and turn the main command dial (the one on the rear of the top deck, under one's right thumb), to change the film speed. The setting will default to DX, but you can override it and set it manually to any film speed value between ISO 6 and ISO 6400, in 1/3 stop increments.

The OP needs to read the friendly manual [RTFM].

pbromaghin · Sep 28, 2020

F100 - wow, very sophisticated and capable camera. Definitely get a manual for it so you can take advantage of those capabilities.

What is metering in camera?

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