What is metering in camera?

dylan77 · Sep 23, 2020

I am relatively new to film and I’ve always put the film in and then just meter, to the correct exposure through the camera. So the needle is in the middle of what I see in camera.

I have recently come across some videos however that people say for example: For portra 400 I usually meter at 320 or box speed, or Fuji 400 rated at 400.

What does this actually mean. Box speed would be 400, though Is metering and rated something to do with exposure compensation? Is this the same as like 1 stop increase? Thanks

John Bragg · Sep 23, 2020

Not exposure compensation as such, but many people choose to rate film at a different personal "Exposure Index". This is usually determined by testing and helps you to get optimised settings for YOUR particular circumstances. Your film in your camera with your metering technique and probably developed by you. Beats a one size fits all approach.

dylan77 · Sep 23, 2020

John Bragg said:
Not exposure compensation as such, but many people choose to rate film at a different personal "Exposure Index". This is usually determined by testing and helps you to get optimised settings for YOUR particular circumstances. Your film in your camera with your metering technique and probably developed by you. Beats a one size fits all approach.

So this would be similar to bracketing, and then working out what’s best in different lighting conditions?

AgX · Sep 23, 2020

With colour films the need for a general differently film speed setting is even less, as all these films are processed to a standard, thus film speed difference due to different processing would be a rare exception.

However film speed loss due to too long storage etc. can be a reason for film speed loss, and thus a deviating film speed setting at the camera.

pentaxuser · Sep 23, 2020

dylan77 said:
So this would be similar to bracketing, and then working out what’s best in different lighting conditions?

Yes for practical reasons ad as a newcomer to film I'd take a minimum three pictures of the same scene in quick succession so the light conditions remain the same throughout. One at box speed, one at one stop below and one at one stop above If these are the only shots of the same scene you won't have to even make a note of the scene, just remember then order of the exposures When the film is developed decide which one looks the best in terms of contrast, colour saturation and shadow detail and that's your personal EI(exposure index) for that camera and film

You might want to extend this to 1/3 stops( most film speed dials on modern cameras are in 1/3 stops ) if you wish to be more accurate about EI. It will give you finer divisions. The exposures at other speeds will not have been wasted as it will tell you things such as how does the film behave at 1 stop underexposure i.e. 800 speed with box speed film of 400. There might be occasions when the light conditions demand a higher speed it's always worthwhile knowing in advance what to expect

pentaxuser

dylan77 · Sep 23, 2020

pentaxuser said:
Yes for practical reasons ad as a newcomer to film I'd take a minimum three pictures of the same scene in quick succession so the light conditions remain the same throughout. One at box speed, one at one stop below and one at one stop above If these are the only shots of the same scene you won't have to even make a note of the scene, just remember then order of the exposures When the film is developed decide which one looks the best in terms of contrast, colour saturation and shadow detail and that's your personal EI(exposure index) for that camera and film

You might want to extend this to 1/3 stops( most film speed dials on modern cameras are in 1/3 stops ) if you wish to be more accurate about EI. It will give you finer divisions. The exposures at other speeds will not have been wasted as it will tell you things such as how does the film behave at 1 stop underexposure i.e. 800 speed with box speed film of 400. There might be occasions when the light conditions demand a higher speed it's always worthwhile knowing in advance what to expect

Thanks so much. That’s very helpful!

pentaxuser

AgX · Sep 23, 2020

Dylan, the problem today is that the internet with its many advices and even rages easily can puzzle a beginner.

Looking back to the old days, I would say there are these reasons for setting at a camera a different film speed:

-) At cameras that do not yield a true exposure correction switch the film speed dial is the means to do so instead.

One might do so

-) when the scene luminosity is different from the "average grey" (for example when white skin being dominant in the metering field, then a about +1 stop correction is needed, the film speed setting thus reduced by 1 stop, or with people in snow, then even more)

-) when using filters (to keep a grey object still rendered at same density)

-) when homeprocessing b&w films, as often developers other than the standard D-76 in effect will change film speed

-) when using long stored films

Chan Tran · Sep 23, 2020

dylan77 said:
I am relatively new to film and I’ve always put the film in and then just meter, to the correct exposure through the camera. So the needle is in the middle of what I see in camera.

I have recently come across some videos however that people say for example: For portra 400 I usually meter at 320 or box speed, or Fuji 400 rated at 400.

What does this actually mean. Box speed would be 400, though Is metering and rated something to do with exposure compensation? Is this the same as like 1 stop increase? Thanks

rating Portra 400 at 320 isn't 1 stop but rather 1/3 stop. Now many people determine if you expose Portra 400 as if it's a 320 film they have better result.

Alan Edward Klein · Sep 23, 2020

Shoot at box speed. If you photos are coming out OK, there's no reason to play with the setting. If some shots aren't coming out correctly, then correct how you meter those shots. There may be difficult lighting conditions that "fool" the meter. Don;t change the ISO settings. If you change the ISO setting to 320 or anything else, then the shots that were OK will no longer be OK. After all, when you change the ISO, the metering for the whole roll changes.

If you're shooting in difficult lighting situations like sunset, when metering is hard, then you may want to bracket.

pentaxuser · Sep 23, 2020

Alan Edward Klein said:
Don;t change the ISO settings. If you change the ISO setting to 320 or anything else, then the shots that were OK will no longer be OK. After all, when you change the ISO, the metering for the whole roll changes.

If you're shooting in difficult lighting situations like sunset, when metering is hard, then you may want to bracket.

Alan It looks and sounds as if dylan77 is a colour neg user so unlike most if not all b&w films he does have the constant of developing time so it should be possible to change film speed in the same roll.

My feeling is that newcomers to film especially to colour film might well benefit from changing C41 colour neg film speed to satisfy their curiosity, which is to be welcomed, as to the changes in look this might or might not bring that makes the film better from their point of view

pentaxuser

Alan Edward Klein · Sep 23, 2020

pentaxuser said:
Alan It looks and sounds as if dylan77 is a colour neg user so unlike most if not all b&w films he does have the constant of developing time so it should be possible to change film speed in the same roll.

My feeling is that newcomers to film especially to colour film might well benefit from changing C41 colour neg film speed to satisfy their curiosity, which is to be welcomed, as to the changes in look this might or might not bring that makes the film better from their point of view

pentaxuser

One ought to learn to walk before running. He didn't even say he develops his own film, much less know how to develop at different speeds a single roll differently for different shots. Heck, I wouldn't know how to do that. Let him have a consistent developed roll that he can compare shot to shot. Start at bix speed. That way he can tell if he's off. One suggestion would be to keep records for each shot as to exposure settings and lighting conditions to compare to the results. Throwing in different developing times is too complicated for a beginner. ALso, many suggest that Ektar 100 if that's what he's shooting, should be shot at box speed while other color negative could be shot at 320. I think one should start at box speed to learn the ropes first. But certainly, shoot the whole roll at one speed.

pbromaghin · Sep 23, 2020

Dylan, metering at box speed means setting your camera ISO to the ISO on the box. When somebody says they meter in ISO 400 film at 320, it means they set their camera ISO to 320. I recommend you just don't bother with it until you have shot enough to recognize how your photos come out in different lighting conditions and are real picky about it. After 50 years, I still don't do it.

However, bracketing is a good idea.

Chan Tran · Sep 23, 2020

One thing though. If you rate the film at other ISO than box speed you should do it because of the characteristic of the film and not due to the lighting condition.

Sirius Glass · Sep 23, 2020

Dylan set the meter to box speed, in this case ISO 400, and do not change it unless you have a really good reason. The latitude of modern color negative film is quite wide and suit your needs well.

Steve - former Kodak employee.

AgX · Sep 23, 2020

Alan Edward Klein said:
There may be difficult lighting conditions that "fool" the meter. Don;t change the ISO settings. If you change the ISO setting to 320 or anything else, then the shots that were OK will no longer be OK. After all, when you change the ISO, the metering for the whole roll changes.

As I indicated above in such situation changing the film speed setting for a single exposure is the way to go. In case of AE and no special exposure correcting switch. Othwerwise one could change to manual operation and correct there. Or at a full manual camera one likely has the possibility to correct directly at the the paddle/needle coinciding or simillar.

dylan77 · Sep 23, 2020

Chan Tran said:
rating Portra 400 at 320 isn't 1 stop but rather 1/3 stop. Now many people determine if you expose Portra 400 as if it's a 320 film they have better result.

1/3 seems so small though to see a real difference

dylan77 · Sep 23, 2020

Alan Edward Klein said:
One ought to learn to walk before running. He didn't even say he develops his own film, much less know how to develop at different speeds a single roll differently for different shots. Heck, I wouldn't know how to do that. Let him have a consistent developed roll that he can compare shot to shot. Start at bix speed. That way he can tell if he's off. One suggestion would be to keep records for each shot as to exposure settings and lighting conditions to compare to the results.

This was my plan, though supposedly i can’t do this as the whole roll then changes? Or are you talking each individual shoot? On the other hand My camera has bracketing, so that would give me three different exposures, which must show different in developing?

Throwing in different developing times is too complicated for a beginner. ALso, many suggest that Ektar 100 if that's what he's shooting, should be shot at box speed while other color negative could be shot at 320. I think one should start at box speed to learn the ropes first. But certainly, shoot the whole roll at one speed.

dylan77 · Sep 23, 2020

pbromaghin said:
Dylan, metering at box speed means setting your camera ISO to the ISO on the box. When somebody says they meter in ISO 400 film at 320, it means they set their camera ISO to 320. I recommend you just don't bother with it until you have shot enough to recognize how your photos come out in different lighting conditions and are real picky about it. After 50 years, I still don't do it.

Thanks. How would one actually go about changing 400 down to 320 in camera?

However, bracketing is a good idea.

John Koehrer · Sep 23, 2020

dylan77 said:
I am relatively new to film and I’ve always put the film in and then just meter, to the correct exposure through the camera. So the needle is in the middle of what I see in camera.

I have recently come across some videos however that people say for example: For portra 400 I usually meter at 320 or box speed, or Fuji 400 rated at 400.

What does this actually mean. Box speed would be 400, though Is metering and rated something to do with exposure compensation? Is this the same as like 1 stop increase? Thanks

IF it makes it easier to understand for you, think of it as exposure compensation. someone suggested trying some pictures by using different settings(bracketing)
and judging the pictures to see which are the results that YOU prefer. With a 400 speed film you may find the results more pleasing at 320.(slightly more exposure/overexposed).

The only way to see what you prefer is learn by doing. Don't want to learn, do it the same old way & get the same old results.

There was a reference to changing developing techniques to change results. That's nice when you want to start doing your own developing and printing, not
sending it to a lab.

pentaxuser · Sep 23, 2020

Unless bracketing means something different from what I understand it to mean, it means shooting a scene at say box speed then at speeds above and below that to be sure you have the correct exposure for the scene as one exposure might not be the ideal exposure
In essence this is what you are doing when I suggested that you shoot the same scene at say 1/3rd over box speed and 1/3 under box speed. You might want to extend this to 2/3rds to see if there is any improvement or deterioration in the negative. If a lab develops your film then the the constant you have is the development time as it will use the standard C41 development time of 3 mins 15 seconds.

As far as changing film speed is concerned then most cameras from the modern era have a speed dial which will have a series of figures such as 25, 50 100, 125 etc designating the film speed or it may be that your film speeds are contained on a chip in the camera and you simply move a lever that reveals the chosen speed in a small digital window I have such a camera for instance

The instructions for changing film speed will be inside the instruction book. Tell us what camera you use if you do not possess an instruction book and maybe someone here has the same camera and can help but it is worth getting an instruction book.

Search for Butkus manuals. He has most of the camera manuals and you just download the correct manual from his site and make a donation to help him with the upkeep of the site

pentaxuser

dylan77 · Sep 23, 2020

John Koehrer said:
IF it makes it easier to understand for you, think of it as exposure compensation. someone suggested trying some pictures by using different settings(bracketing)
and judging the pictures to see which are the results that YOU prefer. With a 400 speed film you may find the results more pleasing at 320.(slightly more exposure/overexposed).

Hey. Many people have mentioned more pleasing results at 320, Though do you find this depends on the weather/lighting condition at the time?

The only way to see what you prefer is learn by doing. Don't want to learn, do it the same old way & get the same old results.

There was a reference to changing developing techniques to change results. That's nice when you want to start doing your own developing and printing, not
sending it to a lab.

dylan77 · Sep 23, 2020

pentaxuser said:
Unless bracketing means something different from what I understand it to mean, it means shooting a scene at say box speed then at speeds above and below that to be sure you have the correct exposure for the scene as one exposure might not be the ideal exposure
In essence this is what you are doing when I suggested that you shoot the same scene at say 1/3rd over box speed and 1/3 under box speed. You might want to extend this to 2/3rds to see if there is any improvement or deterioration in the negative. If a lab develops your film then the the constant you have is the development time as it will use the standard C41 development time of 3 mins 15 seconds.

Sounds good

As far as changing film speed is concerned then most cameras from the modern era have a speed dial which will have a series of figures such as 25, 50 100, 125 etc designating the film speed or it may be that your film speeds are contained on a chip in the camera and you simply move a lever that reveals the chosen speed in a small digital window I have such a camera for instance

The instructions for changing film speed will be inside the instruction book. Tell us what camera you use if you do not possess an instruction book and maybe someone here has the same camera and can help but it is worth getting an instruction book.

The camera I use is a Nikon F100 which has DX, not the dial.

Search for Butkus manuals. He has most of the camera manuals and you just download the correct manual from his site and make a donation to help him with the upkeep of the site

pentaxuser

dylan77 · Sep 23, 2020

pentaxuser said:
Unless bracketing means something different from what I understand it to mean, it means shooting a scene at say box speed then at speeds above and below that to be sure you have the correct exposure for the scene as one exposure might not be the ideal exposure
In essence this is what you are doing when I suggested that you shoot the same scene at say 1/3rd over box speed and 1/3 under box speed. You might want to extend this to 2/3rds to see if there is any improvement or deterioration in the negative.

If I do this on the same role of film does the lab know this, or they just try to make all the negatives look the same?

If a lab develops your film then the the constant you have is the development time as it will use the standard C41 development time of 3 mins 15 seconds.

As far as changing film speed is concerned then most cameras from the modern era have a speed dial which will have a series of figures such as 25, 50 100, 125 etc designating the film speed or it may be that your film speeds are contained on a chip in the camera and you simply move a lever that reveals the chosen speed in a small digital window I have such a camera for instance

The instructions for changing film speed will be inside the instruction book. Tell us what camera you use if you do not possess an instruction book and maybe someone here has the same camera and can help but it is worth getting an instruction book.

Search for Butkus manuals. He has most of the camera manuals and you just download the correct manual from his site and make a donation to help him with the upkeep of the site

pentaxuser

pentaxuser · Sep 23, 2020

Yes, the problem may be that the scanned prints the lab produces for you will look at least similar as it may attempt to make them all look the same, assuming you had made exposure mistakes with some frames . I'd ask it to scan all the negs with the same settings as that used only for box speed exposure which will be the majority of the film You need to make a note of which frames were not box speed and what the speed was so you can identify the scans and prints from the scans and prints that are not box speed ones

If it were me I'd go into the lab or speak directly to the lab and explain what is it you are trying to do. If it is a properly run lab this should be fine If it is a chain store sort of lab with operators and /or a manager who are on low wages then it may not know enough or care enough to help

Only you can decide based on your knowledge of the lab

Best of luck

pentaxuser

dylan77 · Sep 23, 2020

pentaxuser said:
Yes, the problem may be that the scanned prints the lab produces for you will look at least similar as it may attempt to make them all look the same, assuming you had made exposure mistakes with some frames . I'd ask it to scan all the negs with the same settings as that used only for box speed exposure which will be the majority of the film You need to make a note of which frames were not box speed and what the speed was so you can identify the scans and prints from the scans and prints that are not box speed ones

If it were me I'd go into the lab or speak directly to the lab and explain what is it you are trying to do. If it is a properly run lab this should be fine If it is a chain store sort of lab with operators and /or a manager who are on low wages then it may not know enough or care enough to help

Only you can decide based on your knowledge of the lab

Thankyou!

Best of luck

pentaxuser

What is metering in camera?

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