What Happened to this Shot?

Old-N-Feeble · Nov 30, 2017

AgX said:
A partial double exposure would happen in case of

-) overwinding as I explained above

-) mid-roll transport-cancellation with added film movent (as pulling a bit the rewind)

BUT in both cases the image would be wider and with fine (non-double) exposure parts at both ends.
The shown image though is NOT of that kind.

So we are not yet at the end of the story.

We don't know that. We only see a partial image. We're not shown 'between' and 'beyond' the frame.

AgX · Nov 30, 2017

You are right.
We still might see a cropped image out of a widened frame. (But I explicitely asked Thomas about that.)
Thus it then could be that double-exposing with added film movent. In this case due to pushing-in that button during winding.

Arklatexian · Nov 30, 2017

bdial said:
Looks like a partial double-exposure to me.

+1

etn · Nov 30, 2017

If this happens again, have your camera checked by a technician. The film transport mechanism might be defective.

shutterfinger · Nov 30, 2017

I see some of you are starting to rethink this.
The camera has a rewind button on the bottom of the camera and a rewind lever so the film feeds from the cassette to the take up spool. Direction of travel when winding is left to right.
The displayed image in camera would be Non extra exposure side (right side as displayed) is the left edge of the image frame.
How can a press of the rewind button during film advance and trip of the shutter cause a secondary exposure that is about 2 sprocket holes short of the full frame of the correctly exposed image and not be affecting the edge of an adjoining frame?

Please post a picture of the negative strip that contains the frame in question. If the frame in question is at the end of the strip then post a picture of the next strip in numerical frame sequence.'
If you do not have an electronic recording camera then use a cell phone camera. Place the negatives on a light box. If you do not have a light box then open a New Text Document full screen in a text editor built into operating systems and hold the negative strip(s) in front of the monitor while taking a picture of them.
A double exposure should cover a full frame not 3/4 of one.
Another possibility is the shutter button was depressed during film advance causing a premature shutter release but you should still get a full frame secondary exposure.

OlyMan · Dec 1, 2017

etn said:
If this happens again, have your camera checked by a technician. The film transport mechanism might be defective.

Yeah I think this as well. In a previous thread he asked why his first roll of film got hard to advance part way through then suddenly got easier again. We eventually deduced that he tried to wind past the end of a 24-exp film and basically just kept forcing it until the sprocket-holes finally tore. Possibly the damage was done then.

As someone who was born in the era of film cameras, I maybe under-estimate how hard it is for someone a generation younger than me to pick up what I think are rudimentary concepts. But it also probably doesn't help that we have spawned a generation of people who don't ever think to RTFM for anything. No better example that my own kid: gave him the instruction manual for his new-to-him OM-40, and the look on his face was like "why would I ever need this?"

Thomas Keidan · Dec 2, 2017

OlyMan said:
Yeah I think this as well. In a previous thread he asked why his first roll of film got hard to advance part way through then suddenly got easier again. We eventually deduced that he tried to wind past the end of a 24-exp film and basically just kept forcing it until the sprocket-holes finally tore. Possibly the damage was done then.

As someone who was born in the era of film cameras, I maybe under-estimate how hard it is for someone a generation younger than me to pick up what I think are rudimentary concepts. But it also probably doesn't help that we have spawned a generation of people who don't ever think to RTFM for anything. No better example that my own kid: gave him the instruction manual for his new-to-him OM-40, and the look on his face was like "why would I ever need this?"

I'm so confused because this happened right in the middle of the roll and then everything resumed as normal! Every other shot is fine... does anyone have any idea what this is or is it safe to say its a 'freak' double exposure?

Just to clarify the shot in question was shot 9 out of 26!

E. von Hoegh · Dec 2, 2017

Did you perhaps make that photo through glass at an angle to the camera? I'm reaching here, without seeing the negative strip it's impossible to be sure.

Thomas Keidan · Dec 2, 2017

E. von Hoegh said:
Did you perhaps make that photo through glass at an angle to the camera? I'm reaching here, without seeing the negative strip it's impossible to be sure.

Nope nothing like that i'm still waiting for the negatives to come back and wouldn't know how to show everyone anyway!

Thomas Keidan · Dec 2, 2017

UPDATE: Negatives arrived today, I have taken a picture against a white background on my phone, I apologise for the rubbish quality but I hope it can help!

https://www.flickr.com/photos/141308401@N06/38784379371/in/dateposted-public/

DWThomas · Dec 2, 2017

Well, there is definitely an overlapping frame sort of double exposure. There is a small tear in one sprocket hole in that section, so it would seem to be a glitch in advancing the film. Now why or what, that could be the challenge!

E. von Hoegh · Dec 2, 2017

Could be as simple as trying to advance film with finger or hand pressure on the rewind knob...

AgX · Dec 2, 2017

Thomas Keidan said:
... does anyone have any idea what this is or is it safe to say its a 'freak' double exposure?

We can't, unless you show us a photograph of that film strip or describe the faulty part. We are not sure that what we see so far is what you got and thus we asked you repeatedly about that.

Thomas Keidan · Dec 2, 2017

AgX said:
We can't, unless you show us a photograph of that film strip or describe the faulty part. We are not sure that what we see so far is what you got and thus we asked you repeatedly about that.

I have attached a link to a picture of the film strip!

faberryman · Dec 2, 2017

Looking at the image on your Flickr account, for some reason the frame did not fully advance and the second and third frames on that strip overlapped. Could be that you did not fully advance the frame, but you got it far enough that it cocked the shutter, or perhaps there is an issue with the advance mechanism. If it is a problem with the advance mechanism it will happen again. Cross your fingers it was a one-off.

Thomas Keidan · Dec 2, 2017

faberryman said:
Looking at the image on your Flickr account, for some reason the frame did not fully advance and the second and third frames on that strip overlapped. Could be that you did not fully advance the frame, but you got it far enough that it cocked the shutter, or perhaps there is an issue with the advance mechanism. If it is a problem with the advance mechanism it will happen again. Cross your fingers it was a one-off.

I hope it is a one off, the camera was serviced in April so I know it was in good condition prior to this. Could it not just be human error on my part that caused it?

Thomas Keidan · Dec 2, 2017

E. von Hoegh said:
Could be as simple as trying to advance film with finger or hand pressure on the rewind knob...

Hand pressure on the rewind knob could be plausible. I hope it's human error on my part rather than a mechanical issue

E. von Hoegh · Dec 2, 2017

Thomas Keidan said:
Hand pressure on the rewind knob could be plausible. I hope it's human error on my part rather than a mechanical issue

Handling the camera is important in becoming familiar with, and mindful of the various controls. It doesn't happen without practice. Film isn't cheap, but you don't need film to go through the motions of focussing, pressing the shutter, and advancing the (non-existent) film.
If you can forgive me for saying so, you are so over cautious that you may not really be aware of exactly what you are doing. It will also help to keep a log of every exposure, shutter speed, f stop, any other details. Great help if things go wrong, and it sure slows you down and gives you time to think! I do this whenever I photograph anything important with 35mm or 2 1/4, and invariably with 4x5 and 8x10.
Except for the double exposure, the other photos you posted are clearly focussed and well exposed.

Thomas Keidan · Dec 2, 2017

OK I will start keeping a log, I was really enjoying shooting and was completely confused when the incident happened... I was even more confused that this happened on shot 9 and the rest of the roll turned out great. So I hope its not a mechanical issue and rather my fault. But I will stop being so careful and learn how to properly handle the camera etc!

E. von Hoegh · Dec 2, 2017

Just be thankful you didn't buy a prewar Contax.
They're, how can I say it, charmingly different. But great fun, and quite fast to focus and expose once you become familiar. And very Teutonic - if you even think about squeezing out the extra frame or three you get shredded film and have to unload it in a darkroom, among other endearing quirks such as fucussing with your right middle finger and holding the camera in a very specific grip so you don't block the RF window.

albada · Dec 2, 2017

Thomas Keidan said:
Hand pressure on the rewind knob could be plausible. I hope it's human error on my part rather than a mechanical issue

+1 for this theory because of the damaged sprocket-hole in the film.
I agree that hand-pressure prevented the film from advancing, causing the sprocket to jump a couple of holes.
Based on the other shots, I'd say your camera is fine.

Mark Overton

Thomas Keidan · Dec 2, 2017

albada said:
+1 for this theory because of the damaged sprocket-hole in the film.
I agree that hand-pressure prevented the film from advancing, causing the sprocket to jump a couple of holes.
Based on the other shots, I'd say your camera is fine.

Mark Overton

Great what a relief. My girlfriend was taking the shot in question when the incident occurred so I can’t be 100% sure it was that but I hope it was. I’m just super glad I’ve hopefully avoided any long term issues and just ended up with one bad shot!

Sirius Glass · Dec 2, 2017

Thomas Keidan said:
UPDATE: Negatives arrived today, I have taken a picture against a white background on my phone, I apologise for the rubbish quality but I hope it can help!

https://www.flickr.com/photos/141308401@N06/38784379371/in/dateposted-public/

Definitely looks like your finger accidentally hit the rewind button on the bottom of the camera. Do not feel badly, I have done that a few times.

Thomas Keidan · Dec 2, 2017

Sirius Glass said:
Definitely looks like your finger accidentally hit the rewind button on the bottom of the camera. Do not feel badly, I have done that a few times.

I’m actually very relieved its human error on my part rather than a mechanical error. I’m not fussed about one wasted shot, i’ll live to learn

shutterfinger · Dec 2, 2017

Thank you for posting the picture of the film strip, very helpful. Post 37, 38, and 40 are the most likely.
Now, open the camera back and inspect the take up sprockets. If the sprocket does not turn freely then use the advance lever to turn the take up. Check for any deformation of the sprockets.
Next hold your thumb against the center of the sprocket applying some pressure and advance the film lever as if advancing to the next frame, trip the shutter and repeat 3 or 4 times.
Does the sprocket turn with the advance lever without slipping. Increasing the pressure on the sprocket should make the advance lever harder to move.

Damaged/deformed sprocket(s) or slippage is a problem with the advance system.

I have a Pentax SP1000 at hand, the sprocket turns freely until the advance is operated 1 time then its locked to the film advance movement. Your camera should operate similar.

What Happened to this Shot?

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