What format would you like to build?

MenacingTourist · Dec 2, 2005

Why 7x17?

I'm still pretty new to all this and wondered what makes the 7x17 format more appealing than other ULF formats like 4x10 and 12x20?

Thanks in advance for the education

David A. Goldfarb · Dec 2, 2005

4x10 is a pretty small and intimate format. APS panos are often printed in about 4x10". It's fairly easy to do 4x10" with a half frame darkslide on an 8x10" camera.

12x20" is a lot of camera.

7x17" is a nice size for contact prints either in the hand or on the wall, an attractive panoramic shape, and the camera isn't so unwieldy as an 8x20" or larger camera. Lois Conner traveled around China with her 7x17" kit strapped across the rear rack of her bicycle. You couldn't do that so easily with an 8x20" or larger camera.

reggie · Dec 2, 2005

I would like 16x20 with the ability to add on reducing backs for 12x20, 8x20, 14x17 and maybe an interesting format like 16x16. The idea of a square ULF is pretty interesting.

claytume · Dec 2, 2005

nick mulder said:
I am yet to pull one apart but my next camera will be a 8x10 and I plan to make a holder also ... just need a lens and shutter with the coverage - rare, here in NZ

Nick.......there's more 810 shooters in NZ than you think.........I have quite a few shuttered lenses that cover and I know of plenty of others. I can lend you a holder to copy when you're ready.

Clayton

waynecrider · Dec 2, 2005

How about a hugh cheap pinhole camera? Something like 11x14 or 16x20.

barryjyoung · Dec 2, 2005

Thank you to everyone who has so far contributed an opinion.

Here are the numbers

8 votes for 7x17 field camera
2 votes for 8x20 field camera
and one vote each for the other 14 formats requested. I count the pinhole requests seperately because A field camera is a desirable design and can easily be used for pinhole.

So, at this point, I am still seeing a definite preference for a 7x17 format field camera.

Anybody have a 7x17 film holder I could rent?

Barry Young
cameramaker.com

nick mulder · Dec 2, 2005

claytume said:
Nick.......there's more 810 shooters in NZ than you think.........I have quite a few shuttered lenses that cover and I know of plenty of others. I can lend you a holder to copy when you're ready.

Clayton

I don't disagree with you about the amount of 8x10 shooters - its just that they tend to hold onto their lenses - especially wides and/or newer coated lenses in reliable shutters ...

I see quite a few with 4x5 and 120 panoramic coverage (which often cover 5x7 @ infinity with no movement) - but not 8x10

Unless I am looking in the wrong places ? trademe, local camera stores...

I guess I'm holding onto the unlikely dream of finding a mint Hypergon or similar for $5 in a garage sale somewhere in the middle of the wops

I think if I ever get one it will be through APUG or eBay - its nice to think that I would be increasing the local pool of analog gadgetry to go around (;

cheers for the offer on a holder to get the measurements also

jimgalli · Dec 3, 2005

Well this never gets past the dream stage becuse my skill level is connected to my chain saw, but I've got rolls of 9 1/2" aerial recon Kodak B&W film in the freezer, and wouldn't a 9.5 X 24" format just rock! I began a 9.5 X 36" pinhole project once upon a time. Load a single sheet and throw that bad boy in the truck. Alas it languishes unfinished underneath the outdoor staircase.

barryjyoung · Dec 3, 2005

Hi Jim:

Sounds like a natural for a roll film back project. You are right, that would be a very exciting format.

Barry Young
cameramaker.com

jimgalli said:
Well this never gets past the dream stage becuse my skill level is connected to my chain saw, but I've got rolls of 9 1/2" aerial recon Kodak B&W film in the freezer, and wouldn't a 9.5 X 24" format just rock! I began a 9.5 X 36" pinhole project once upon a time. Load a single sheet and throw that bad boy in the truck. Alas it languishes unfinished underneath the outdoor staircase.

Curt · Dec 3, 2005

The way photo supplies are going I would like a Minox type view camera with lots of movements.

TheFlyingCamera · Dec 19, 2005

I'm in the planning stages (and gear acquisition stages) for a 12x20 portrait camera. Hopefully my platinum/palladium printing skills will be up to snuff by the time I have it built. So far I have a Packard shutter, and I'm lining up a 600mm lens for it. If that falls through, I'll go for a 450/480.

philldresser · Dec 19, 2005

If the lottery god blessed me with some of his spoils I would like to try a 7x17 field camera.

Phill

John Bartley · Dec 19, 2005

jimgalli said:
Well this never gets past the dream stage becuse my skill level is connected to my chain saw, but I've got rolls of 9 1/2" aerial recon Kodak B&W film in the freezer, and wouldn't a 9.5 X 24" format just rock! I began a 9.5 X 36" pinhole project once upon a time. Load a single sheet and throw that bad boy in the truck. Alas it languishes unfinished underneath the outdoor staircase.

Heyyy!! Great minds think alike eh? I just read this thread and whaddaya know - thanks to Jim, I now have a lens, I have the film holder plans in my head and being officially "laid off" from my job, I should have some time to build the 10x24 that I mused about in another thread just one day after this post by Jim G himself .

edit : oh-yeah ... I just picked up a Packard shutter to go along with this project so now I have no excuses ..

barryjyoung · Dec 19, 2005

Results seem obvious at this point

Well, the most recent tabulation of your responses indicate that there is an overwhelming majority of people interested in 7x17. 36% of responders want that format. 8% want 8x20 and everybody else wants something less popular. I am amazed. If I had known this in the beginning I would have designed a 7x17 first. Thank goodness most of the parts for the 8x10 will work without modification on the 7x17.

There is still an amazing amount of work to do before I release kits. I am currently submitting requests for quotes to machine and fabrication companies all over the Greater Seattle area. It is a huge investment to make the first run of parts and very inexpensive after the first run. You have to pay for the company to make custom tooling, program the parts to run on their CNC machines and let me tell you, brass aint cheap in big pieces. I have had to completely re-draw all the drawings for the detail parts (which is why you haven't seen much of me lately) to make it easier for the vendors to program. I finally have all of the materials sourced which was a WAY bigger job than I originally anticipated. Now I am working on finishing the first 8x10 camera and writing the assembly instructions. Then there is getting a business license and registering with the state so they can tax me to death.

The author now climbs to the top of the soap box weary with fatigue.

That reminds me, when you buy something, anything, just think for a moment about why the price seems high. Self employment tax is right around 25%. That means that whatever the guy makes after investing his life in getting a project like this off the ground isn't all his. A quarter of every dollar in profits goes to some state agency. Ouch! That is assuming there are any profits at all and also assuming that someone buys your product. So the only alternative is to raise the price the customer has to pay in order to hopefully get something for all of this effort. In addition there is a myriad of other smaller taxes to go with this bureaucratic insult.

The author dismounts the soap box feeling somewhat better but no richer.

Thank you for letting me vent.

Mongo · Dec 19, 2005

Just to make things more difficult...I'd love a 7x17, but I want one that does verticals as easily as it does horizontals. About 75% of my shots are vertically oriented, and I love vertical panoramas.

(Verticals can be a matter of flipping the whole camera on its side, as long as the camera will take the abuse and the movements won't be restricted in that orientation.)

TheFlyingCamera · Dec 20, 2005

Barry- don't know if it will help, but I'd be interested in getting sets of knobs and gears, even though the other parts on the camera wouldn't be compatible with what you're doing.

barryjyoung said:
Well, the most recent tabulation of your responses indicate that there is an overwhelming majority of people interested in 7x17. 36% of responders want that format. 8% want 8x20 and everybody else wants something less popular. I am amazed. If I had known this in the beginning I would have designed a 7x17 first. Thank goodness most of the parts for the 8x10 will work without modification on the 7x17.

There is still an amazing amount of work to do before I release kits. I am currently submitting requests for quotes to machine and fabrication companies all over the Greater Seattle area. It is a huge investment to make the first run of parts and very inexpensive after the first run. You have to pay for the company to make custom tooling, program the parts to run on their CNC machines and let me tell you, brass aint cheap in big pieces. I have had to completely re-draw all the drawings for the detail parts (which is why you haven't seen much of me lately) to make it easier for the vendors to program. I finally have all of the materials sourced which was a WAY bigger job than I originally anticipated. Now I am working on finishing the first 8x10 camera and writing the assembly instructions. Then there is getting a business license and registering with the state so they can tax me to death.

The author now climbs to the top of the soap box weary with fatigue.

That reminds me, when you buy something, anything, just think for a moment about why the price seems high. Self employment tax is right around 25%. That means that whatever the guy makes after investing his life in getting a project like this off the ground isn't all his. A quarter of every dollar in profits goes to some state agency. Ouch! That is assuming there are any profits at all and also assuming that someone buys your product. So the only alternative is to raise the price the customer has to pay in order to hopefully get something for all of this effort. In addition there is a myriad of other smaller taxes to go with this bureaucratic insult.

The author dismounts the soap box feeling somewhat better but no richer.

Thank you for letting me vent.

ReallyBigCameras · Dec 20, 2005

MenacingTourist said:
I'm still pretty new to all this and wondered what makes the 7x17 format more appealing than other ULF formats like 4x10 and 12x20?

Thanks in advance for the education

There are currently four different 4x10 cameras on the market. Plus, as David mentioned there are ways to shoot two 4x10 images on a sheet of 8x10 film without resorting to a dedicated 4x10 camera. So, probably not a big market for a 4x10 kit (although, if it's priced right, I'm sure it would sell).

7x17 is more appealing to those who want to produce contact prints directly from in-camera negatives (no need to scan the film and make an enlarged digital negative). This assumes you are shooting black and white. There are no color films currently available in 7x17, nor are there any 14x17 color films that cam be sliced down to 7x17. For color, 4x10 makes more sense. Any film that's available in 8x10 can be sliced in half (or shot two-up 4x10 in-camera), which makes 4x10 the largest practical "banquet" format for shooting color. This is what I use it for. I can scan my 4x10 transparencies on an inexpensive desktop scanner and produce very nice 12x30 prints on an affordable desktop inkjet printer. And, since this is APUG, I will point out that it is possible to make conventional wet darkroom prints from 4x10 originals using an 8x10 enlarger. A 4x10 outfit is much more portable, but if your goal is contact printing in some form, 7x17 makes a lot of sense.

Compared to 12x20, a 7x17 outfit is much smaller and lighter. Also, there are a lot more lenses capable of covering 7x17 than 12x20. I like the 12x20 aspect ratio and think it's a beautiful format, just bigger, heavier, more expensive and harder to work with than 7x17. A 7x17 camera and holders looks downright petite next to a 12x20.

So, my vote on this one is with the majority. I'd love to see a 7x17 kit. I already have my 4x10 for color. I have a nice selection of lenses capable of covering 7x17 and two holders on the way. They only thing I'm lacking is the 7x17 camera.

Kerry

ReallyBigCameras · Dec 20, 2005

TheFlyingCamera said:
Barry- don't know if it will help, but I'd be interested in getting sets of knobs and gears, even though the other parts on the camera wouldn't be compatible with what you're doing.

Also, do you still plan to offer parts for those who wish to design/assemble their own cameras? Specifically, I'd like to be able to purchase a complete 7x17 back (or at the very least the metal hardware) and assemble the rest of the camera myself. While a 7x17 field camera kit would be great (and based on the response here, would sell quite well), I plan to use an ARCA-SWISS monorail as the basis for my 7x17 camera. I did something similar with my 4x10 and am very pleased with the result. So, rather than make/buy another entirely separate camera for 7x17, I'm just looking for a few bits and pieces to super-size my current 4x10.

Kerry

barryjyoung · Dec 20, 2005

kthalmann said:
Also, do you still plan to offer parts for those who wish to design/assemble their own cameras?
Kerry

Kerry and Flying Camera,,,yes, parts will be available individually. We are still waiting on quotes from the sheet metal people, so I do not know yet what the prices look like for certain, but an educated guess says they will be affordable. I will make any of the parts available to those doing modifications as they come into stock.

ReallyBigCameras · Dec 20, 2005

Barry,

Thanks for the response. It's good to know the bits and pieces will be available for people like me who like to dabble in camera building/modification but don't have the skills, tools or patience to build the whole darn thing ourselves.

Please chack your email. I sent you a message concerning your 8x10 camera kit.

Kerry

Curt · Dec 21, 2005

Wood film holder?

4x10 or 11x14 Camera in Art Deco design.

photobum · Dec 21, 2005

Here's another with a serious intrest in 7x17. I had been thinking of getting a beat up e-bay special 8x10 just for the gears and tracks. I'm handy enough with a table saw and hand planes. To be able to buy a kit with a good bellows and un-stripped gears is like Christmas in Vermont. There is no standard film holder, time to talk with Sandy King.

Curt · Dec 21, 2005

Isn't it time for an adjustable Universal film holder? The 4x10 format looks interesting and is an economical alternative for panoramic images. Vertical and/or Horizontal?

argus · Dec 21, 2005

Voila. The new 13x18 back is ready and working. Centimeters that is. I've got enough holders to empty a box of 25 sheets without reloading.

My next task is to get hands on a reeeeaaaaaaaally big filmholder but they don't seem to show up in Europe that much.
I'd like to to 11x14" or 7x17" when I'm retired.

Could this be an 11x14" film holder (eBay link)?

G

What format would you like to build?

MenacingTourist

David A. Goldfarb

Moderator

reggie

claytume

waynecrider

barryjyoung

nick mulder

jimgalli

barryjyoung

Curt

TheFlyingCamera

Membership Council

philldresser

John Bartley

barryjyoung

Mongo

TheFlyingCamera

Membership Council

ReallyBigCameras

Advertiser

ReallyBigCameras

Advertiser

barryjyoung

ReallyBigCameras

Advertiser

Curt

photobum

Curt

argus

What format would you like to build?

Moderator

Membership Council

Membership Council

Advertiser

Advertiser

Advertiser

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency