What Film does the Kodak Panoram 3A really Take?

Magpie · Apr 30, 2006

Hi,

Can some one who has a Kodak Panoram 3A tell me what size film you actually need for it?

There is one for sale here in Sydney that is in great condition, the fellow selling it says it tales 120 film but all the web sites I can find say it takes a larger size.

There are also a couple of 4A (? film) and a 1A (? film) in slightly rougher condition, can anyone confirm the film size they need?

I want to get one of these cameras to try my hand at panorama format but want one that I can get film for (probably JandC) without having to cut it myself as I do not have a dark room yet.

Any advice or information would be very much appreciated.

Regards

Brendan

David H. Bebbington · Apr 30, 2006

Do not have this camera, but the book "Kodak Cameras - The First Hundred Years" states:

No. 1 Panoram 105 rollfilm, format 2 1/4 x 7" Manf. 1900 - 1926
No. 3A Panoram 122 rollfim, format 3 1/4 x 10 3/8" Manf. 1926 - 1928
No. 4 Panoram 103 rollfilm, format 3 1/2 by 12" Manf. 1899 - 1924

If you have details of the lens and shutter fitted to the camera, I could date it more accurately.

Regards,

David

Magpie · Apr 30, 2006

Hi David,

Thanks for that, these cameras have the moving slit lens, no shutter as such so I don't think it will be possible to get an accurate date.

Thanks all the same.

Brendan

DBP · Apr 30, 2006

The number used to indicate negative size, and thus film, before Kodak started numbering films.

1 =120
1a = 116
2c = 130
3 = 118
3a = 122
Other than those it gets really confusing

The Brownie's, Bullseyes, Kodets, and Cartridge Kodaks follow different numbering schemes.

You may be able to substitute 120 for 105 in the No 1 Panoram Kodak, as the film width is the same. 122 film was available from Central Camera last time I checked, but rather dear at ~$30 a roll.

122 and 116/616 are the two sizes I wish someone would produce at a reasonable price ($10 - $15), as there are some pretty interesting cameras in those sizes. I know J and C was looking into 116 a while back, but nothing seems to have come of it.

colrehogan · Apr 30, 2006

Film for Classics sells them for about $20/roll. Check out their website, http://www.filmforclassics.com/

Nick Zentena · Apr 30, 2006

DBP said:
122 and 116/616 are the two sizes I wish someone would produce at a reasonable price ($10 - $15), as there are some pretty interesting cameras in those sizes. I know J and C was looking into 116 a while back, but nothing seems to have come of it.

If you have a spool and backing paper then you can roll your own 116/616 using 70mm unperforated. Film choice isn't that great today but J&C had/has Efke in B&W.

Jim Noel · May 4, 2006

Many users, of which I am one, have made simple adaptations to make these cameras use 120 film instead of 122. This may be the case with the one you see advertised.

Ed Workman · May 22, 2006

David H. Bebbington said:
No. 3A Panoram 122 rollfim, format 3 1/4 x 10 3/8" Manf. 1926 - 1928
No. 4 Panoram 103 rollfilm, format 3 1/2 by 12" Manf. 1899 - 1924

3A film is 3-5/8 in width and was made until about 1970, 3 1/4'' net image width
The Panorams may/probably used paper backing specific to the frame length. IIRC 4 exposure and 6 or 8 exp rolls were sold.
BTW I have a 4A but (I surmise) when that film was discontinued [per above] the owner installed pieces of wood to allow 122 film, I assume that for standard 3A cameras, to be used. i've tried sheetfilm stock cut to the correct width but it is too stiff to use on spools without staying close to the darkroom.

Donald Qualls · May 22, 2006

Ed, assuming you have at least two spools, or at least one and the resources to duplicate it, the easiest way to feed cameras that need film wider than 70 mm is probably to cut down aerial film. The 9 1/2" size will give two 122/124 rolls (same width, different length for different frame size) and not quite a 120 (could get a strip wide enough for 127 and leave less waste, though), etc., while the 5" size will give one strip of anything narrower. Cutting in the dark is a pain, but not too horrible with a roll-to-roll slitter (you could even fabricate one to work in daylight, if you were doing this a lot, say to feed a Cirkut camera in one of the smaller sizes).

Once you have the film, you'll need backing; Exeter paper seems ideal for this. It's very similar to the papers used for commercial 120 films, and though somewhat expensive, it's durable enough to reuse a number of times and comes in a width that will make a lot of rolls from a minimum purchase. Hand marking the framing numbers is easy enough, just measure the camera's frame, add something for the space between (I'd recommend 1/2 inch or more for most of these old formats, to allow for light sneaking under the film at the ends and fogging around the pin roller).

If my one big-roll camera weren't a No. 3 Box Brownie, I'd probably have done some of this by now, including obtaining a multi-roll size Paterson tank and adapting a Paterson or Universal reel for larger film sizes.

Ed Workman · May 23, 2006

Thanks for the help Don
Where can I find Exeter paper? I have been saving 120 backing paper toward an attempt to glue them on a bias to make wider strips and distribute the lap, but that is a grasping-at-straws thing.
I have also thought about a slitter to no good end- My best shot is to rig a razor blade(s) and attempt to pull the film thru it/them. Again, I just gotta get huevos to overcome the fear-of-frustration factor
regards
Ed

Donald Qualls · May 24, 2006

Ed Workman said:
Thanks for the help Don
Where can I find Exeter paper? I have been saving 120 backing paper toward an attempt to glue them on a bias to make wider strips and distribute the lap, but that is a grasping-at-straws thing.
I have also thought about a slitter to no good end- My best shot is to rig a razor blade(s) and attempt to pull the film thru it/them. Again, I just gotta get huevos to overcome the fear-of-frustration factor
regards
Ed

Dead Link Removed

If you drop in over at nelsonfoto.com and search for "Spartus Full-Vue" you'll see a slitter setup that was made to convert 120 to 127; something similar could be fabricated for cutting larger film -- and yes, it's pretty close to pulling the film through a slot with razor blades at the correct position. Also, look around for designs for "film slitters" for making 16 mm or Minox film from 120 or 35 mm -- there are a lot of them out there, and what works for them will work for you. There was also a posting there with a direct source for the correct Exeter paper product to make backing, and I gave some basic information on how you'd go about fabricating spools if you have one to copy or only dimensions.

I'd suggest getting some blades for rotary cutters (from an office supply store) and a plastic rolling pin (from a kitchen store) -- pull the film from spool to spool over the rolling pin with pressure on a bar holding the rolling blades, and you'll get clean cuts without scratching the film, and there won't be so much drag you'll give yourself blisters operating the cutter. Build this into a light tight box, and you won't even have to stand in the dark while you crank the handle...

Do a *really* good job with this, and you could actually make some money selling "reloads" for various formats, backing and paper for folks to roll onto their own spools. Film for Classics used to get $30/roll for 122 and 124, with spools -- I bet you could get $15/roll for reloads; if you get into fabricating spools, you'd sell them separately, which would help sell film (by keeping costs down, and by making spools available for cameras that don't have two).

And don't think I haven't thought about doing exactly this -- it'd cost a few hundred bucks to start up, though, and I don't have the money; nor do I think I could handle big rolls of film in my bathroom/darkroom that's got enough light leakage I can see a rough outline of my hand after only a couple minutes...

CRhymer · May 24, 2006

Ed Workman said:
...
Where can I find Exeter paper? ...

Hi Ed,

If Semper/Exeter Paper Company has a large minimum order size (don't know - haven't tried them), you can buy it by the foot (25 foot minimum) from:

Cartoon Colour Company, Inc.
9024 Lindblade Street
Culver City, California 90232-2584
USA Phone: 800-523-3665
Fax: 310-838-8467

http://www.cartooncolour.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=302

Ask for Pookie.

Cheers,
Clarence

Ed Workman · May 25, 2006

Thanks very much for your help. My son has access to some machine tools and tonite we will discuss spool making, so I'll add slitter building to the list- should be able to come up with something good.
regards
Ed

Ed Workman · May 25, 2006

I meant to express thanks (profusely) to both Doug and Clarence, and I do
Ed

europanorama · Aug 22, 2006

Nick Zentena said:
If you have a spool and backing paper then you can roll your own 116/616 using 70mm unperforated. Film choice isn't that great today but J&C had/has Efke in B&W.

why? agfa has newest avicolor film from 100 to 800 asa/70mm perforated and unperforated. arent there kodak unperforated film. fuji?

Neanderman · Jun 2, 2011

DBP said:
The number used to indicate negative size, and thus film, before Kodak started numbering films.

1 =120

The Brownie's, Bullseyes, Kodets, and Cartridge Kodaks follow different numbering schemes.

Some of the early 120 Kodaks used the #2 designation.

122 and 116/616 are the two sizes I wish someone would produce at a reasonable price ($10 - $15)

It would be AWESOME if someone could start spooling #122 film again. The first difficulty is spools; the second is finding someone willing to slit the right width of stock; the third is getting backing paper printed with frame numbers. And then, of course, there is assembly.

Ed

geoffrey james · Mar 22, 2012

I solved the problem in the late 70's by cutting down 11x14 sheet film and loading them one at a time in a changing bag, something I figured out from looking at the contact prints of Josef Sudek. Then Kodak made me a special order of sheet film, with their own fancy yellow boxes. Now the camera is completely dead, but I look back with pleasure. I did a bunch of publications with it -- The Italian Garden (Abrams), Morbid Symptoms, Arcadia and the French Revolution,( Princeton Architectural Press,) Genius Loci (Canadian Museum of Contemporary Photograph and La Campagna Romana (Editions Rene Blouin). It was a good way to work, because the process slowed you down and you had to make every shot count. There is also more Panoram images in a catalogue called Utopia/Dystopia, National Gallery of Canada.

europanorama · Mar 25, 2012

Great Pleasure to see you here-Geoffrey!

Italian Gardens is-to my mind- the best panoramic pictures book, even infront of the large ones.

Beside the cam and the pictures its the special printing and the people who helped him make this true.
Whats the exaxt size if the film and how long could it be?
How long was your film? Changing after every shot?
Which technical data has the Panoram 3A: lens, exposure times, image-size, filmlenght.

I am sure you will find someone who can repair it.

europanorama · Mar 25, 2012

Donald Qualls said:
Dead Link Removed

If you drop in over at nelsonfoto.com and search for "Spartus Full-Vue" you'll see a slitter setup that was made to convert 120 to 127; something similar could be fabricated for cutting larger film -- and yes, it's pretty close to pulling the film through a slot with razor blades at the correct position. Also, look around for designs for "film slitters" for making 16 mm or Minox film from 120 or 35 mm -- there are a lot of them out there, and what works for them will work for you. There was also a posting there with a direct source for the correct Exeter paper product to make backing, and I gave some basic information on how you'd go about fabricating spools if you have one to copy or only dimensions.

I'd suggest getting some blades for rotary cutters (from an office supply store) and a plastic rolling pin (from a kitchen store) -- pull the film from spool to spool over the rolling pin with pressure on a bar holding the rolling blades, and you'll get clean cuts without scratching the film, and there won't be so much drag you'll give yourself blisters operating the cutter. Build this into a light tight box, and you won't even have to stand in the dark while you crank the handle...

Do a *really* good job with this, and you could actually make some money selling "reloads" for various formats, backing and paper for folks to roll onto their own spools. Film for Classics used to get $30/roll for 122 and 124, with spools -- I bet you could get $15/roll for reloads; if you get into fabricating spools, you'd sell them separately, which would help sell film (by keeping costs down, and by making spools available for cameras that don't have two).

And don't think I haven't thought about doing exactly this -- it'd cost a few hundred bucks to start up, though, and I don't have the money; nor do I think I could handle big rolls of film in my bathroom/darkroom that's got enough light leakage I can see a rough outline of my hand after only a couple minutes...

xkaes on ebay had and make slitters in almost every size and configurations. one cut, multiple cuts.
Its the same person like shown on subminiatures. he has a wonderful site. maybe temporarily not on ebay.
I have a 70mm/120/220-slitter, not yet used but will soon in the next time.

europanorama · Mar 25, 2012

Filmslitter-Discussion

http://www.flickr.com/groups/127/discuss/59155/
link to xkaes inside

removed account4 · Mar 25, 2012

i have a 3a camera, and the thing is that 122 format film is wider, much wider than 120 film.
i spool/reload my own 122 spools with paper instead of film seeing i am too poor to spend 15$/sheet of 11x14 paper
paper, depending on what you use, can have a iso of 50 so it isn't too slow ...

have fun and good luck !
john

geoffrey james · Apr 1, 2012

Hi there ! Thank you for your kind words. My film was 3 3/4 by 10 3/4 inches, and I had to load each one in a changing bag. I figure the exposure was around 1/15 to 1/30th of a second. My camera was a bit special -- it had been modified, with the elements of a Berlin Dagor ground down in diameter and reassembled in the Kodak barrel with a fixed aperture of F22. Kodak made me a special order of Royal Pan (ISO400). I DON"T EVER WANT TO USE IT AGAIN ! I actually have four Noblexes, and did a book with the Noblex on Toronto -- called Toronto. I am finishing a book about Cuba which will have many Noblex images, as well as square ones made with W/W Rollei TLR and Mamiya 6. I am also enjoying the Leica M9, which gives a beautiful file. Cheers

europanorama · Apr 3, 2012

noblex 75?

I hope you also have the noblex 75mm.
eyescan/schorlex with 100mm would also have been nice.
compact cams are essential for travelling.
Sooner or later i will get sigma dp1M and later dp2m. Pans can be shot easily with monopod.

geoffrey james · Jul 11, 2012

Late reply, but no, I did not take to the 75. Doesn't work in confined spaces -- not enough vertical "bite" for me.

europanorama · Jul 14, 2012

For every task the right camera, lens.

What Film does the Kodak Panoram 3A really Take?

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