what does all these lens lerms mean?

I am new to large format. Still don't have one but looking very hard into it. When looking at adds I meat a lot of terms I have no clue about them amd often feels like an idiot.

Here is a list (I am sure not a complete one) of lens terminology - words that I would love to know their meaning, use, and relative advantage of one vs. the other. I didn't arrange them in any order, just listed names I found on E-bay as I have found them.

I assume a good part of it has to do with brand names and brand specific terminology. I also assume that they all have meaning that can be described in simpler terms so I and other who are trying to choose one over the other will have the advantage of knowing what we are getting.

So here they are:

Goertz Dagor
Goretz Berlin Dogmar
Computar symmetrigon
APO
Ektar
Artar
Caltar
Optar
Caltar II-N
Ilex
Acuton
Acutar
Acme Synchro 3 shutter
George Leimeir
Anastigmat
Tessar
Xenar
Angulon
super angulon
G-Claron
Symmar
Ronar
Sironar
Helimar
Heliar
Sironar
tominon

Also, what is the difference between copal shutter and alphax shutter. Any other ?

Goertz is a company name. Actually a few companies. One german one US.

Dagor and Dogmar are types of lenses. They tell you what the lens design is. Dagors are wide angle lenses. Different models have different angles of coverage.

Ektar is a Kodak name.

Artar is a Goertz name. Narrow angle. Good for normal or longer lenses.

Ilex was a US company.

Acme a shutter make. Often used by the Road Runner.

Tessar and Xenar are the same design made by different companies. Zeiss Tessar is the orginal. All others are Tessar types. The Scheinder Xenar is a Tessar type lens. Most companies make a Tessar or did.

Angulon and supers are wide lens designs. Some body can confirm if the first one is basically a modified Dagor or not.

G-Claron is a wide angle process lens that happens to work peachy on cameras.

BTW if you plug any of those terms into the google news group archive for rec.photo.equipment.large-format The amount of info is quite broad.

Nick Zentena said:

...Acme a shutter make. Often used by the Road Runner...

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Coyote...

Nick Zentena said:

Acme a shutter make. Often used by the Road Runner.

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*SPLUTTER*! LOL!

Thanks, Nick. I needed that.

Nick Zentena said:

BTW if you plug any of those terms into the google news group archive for rec.photo.equipment.large-format The amount of info is quite broad.

Click to expand...

Thank you Nick for the explanation and the link to the news group . - found there all I needed to know and than some. looks like a good source for many other questions running in my mind all the time

Most of the words are lens brand names. A few are shutter brand names or company names. Describing the properties of all of them would need a very lengthy answer.

What is your purpose? Selecting an inexpensive first lens? You don't need to understand the entire technical and commercial history of optics to enter LF photography. You might do better to tell us your goals, e.g., focal length, cost, etc., and get suggestions. If you can afford a recent lens, some of the manufacturers have datasheets on the web that provide the pertinant figures such as coverage -- with this you can select the lens by performance requirements rather than understanding the design.

If you want budget-priced lens, I think that a Symmar in a Compur or Copal shutter represents an excellent tradeoff between cost, quality reliablity and availability. These are sometimes called convertible Symmars. The Symmar names was reused by Schneider for improved versions (Symmar-S, Apo-Symmar,..), but these will cost more. Focal lengths from 150 to 210 are considered normal for 4x5 -- I like 180, but the 150 and 210 are more common.

If you find lens design and history interesting, the best source of information is the book "A History of the Photographic Lens" by Rudolf Kingslake. This will explain most of the classic designs and many of the brand names. It is very readable and reasonably priced. Most of the currently made LF lens designs are derivates of classic designs, usually tweaked with computer analysis.

You can learn alot about specific lenses by browsing the archives of this forum, or the forums at http://www.photo.net/bboard/forum?topic_id=1547 and http://www.largeformatphotography.info/lfforum/.

you can also find some lens info here: http://www.graflex.org/lenses/lens-spec.html

Nick Zentena said:

Acme a shutter make. Often used by the Road Runner.

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I've never been satisfied with their shutters but their Dynamite and Anvils are without peer.

Flotsam said:

I've never been satisfied with their shutters but their Dynamite and Anvils are without peer.

Click to expand...

I have always been partial to their Giant Magnets and Cannons with the pull string.

Thank you Michael. You have replayed to one question I have asked and another one I need to ask. The goal of my initial question is to make myself familiar with terms I see each day on e-bay and feel quite stupid to read them there without knowing the meaning. Your suggestion to buy the book is an excellent one. I'll start looking for it tonight. Thanks. As to the lense to I ma not really ready to ask this question yet (though I should be). My criteria are moe than price vs. performance so I need to figure some of it first but thanks for the initial thoughts about it. I'll keep them in mind

Acme a "make?" I thought it would best be described as a design made by Ilex, which also made Universal shutters.

Copal shutters are modern, made in Japan.

Alphax were made by Wollensak and are "press" type double action shutters---they cock and fire all in one press of the cable release. Copals are also available in "press" configuration.

Caltar is a house name for lenses sold by Calumet.

Optars were for the most part manufactured by Wollensak. There might be exceptions, but they were popular on Graphic cameras.

Cheers!

Thank you John for completing the picture for me

Time to muddy the waters a bit, then

Other shutters include Compur (dial-set, rim-set, Rapid, Press), Prontor (lots of types), Compur (all quite old and big) and a lot of others.

They come in three different sizes (now, there used to be more): Sizes 0, 1, and 3. 0 is the smallest, 3 the largest. Sometimes you come across size 00 (tiny), 3s (slightly smaller than 3), and (always old) 2, 4 and 5. Really old shutters ahd no sizes, they were made to fit the lens instead of the other way round.

There are only a few modern lens makers - "modern" meaning "still makes LF lenses": Schneider, Rodenstock, Nikon, Fujinon, Cooke (just started after a 50 year hiatus), and the Chinese one I can never remember.

50 years ago there were many more, and 90 years ago there were 20 in Germany alone.

Thanks Ole for the good info though it makes me wonder. Most I see on e-bay are copal shutters and occasional compur. rarely others. Your understanding of "modern" ("modern" = "still makes LF lenses") describe one good reason to get certain lenses. Does same reasoning apply to shutters as well - i.e. copal is a safer choice?

IMHO, If you stick solely to "modern" lenses and shutters you'll be missing out on a whole lot of fun and paying dearly to enjoy the poverty. There is a lot of great old vintage glass out there available quite reasonably, and many fine old shutters that keep on working. Dagors and Artars for example, have a well deserved cult like following and if you take a close look at an old Betax shutter you'll notice that they built these things to last(and last...and last)

The problem with the cult lenses is they tend to have cult prices.

For 4x5 I'm not sure you can save any money going with the better vintage lenses. It's different with the larger formats

Seagull I guess is the Chinese maker. Congo also still makes lenses.

Ruvy, yes there is much to learn. A whole new language. Most of what you've listed are "classic" lens terminology. There's much interesting history behind all the names. But to get started I always recommend beginning with a modern lens design and a modern shutter. There's so much else that can go wrong that it's beneficial not to wonder what a 65 year old shutter is doing to you. If you find a Calumet or Cambo 4X5 listed with a 210mm f5.6 Schneider Symmar or Caltar SII or Caltar IIN in a Copal shutter for between $350 and $400 you will have struck a bargain that I can guarantee will make a satisfactory start for you.

Goertz Dagor: Actually spelled Goerz with no T. Excellent old manufacturer of optical glass. Much history. Many of their products from 40 to 100 years ago are still very useful today in LF.

Computar symmetrigon: Japanese made lens. Good value for $$ sometimes.

APO: Apochromatic correction. All three colors land in the same plain. Not always so in long history of lenses so can be important for folks working in color photography. Many many lenses have this correction but don't "advertise" it.

Ektar: Eastman Kodak lenses. Always had excellent quality control. Still popular with users today but most in 60 year old shutters. Any Ektar is APO.

Artar: Goerz model name. Extremely sharp but somewhat narrow coverage. Means you can't have as many "movements" before you run out of "image circle"

Caltar: This was a Calumet Photo house brand name. Calumet was a big Chicago based photo outfit that bought lenses en masse from other makers and re-branded them as house brand for sale at a cheaper price. THEY STILL DO! Most are superb quality. The oldest ones were Ilex and just so-so. Any Caltar SII is a rebranded Schneider Kreuznach, and the IIN is a Rodenstock.

Optar: Rebranded Wollensak lens sold on Graflex cameras. Just fair IMHO.

Caltar II-N: as above.

Ilex: Old USA lens company that slugged it out into the mid 1960's. Some of the first generation Caltar's were made by these folks. Any Caltar in the old American shutter Acme Synchro is one of these. OK for $80 but not so hot for $225.

Acuton: Acutar: Both "new" names for the last of the Ilex products after Calumet abandoned them for Schneider and Rodenstock. As the company got sold and re-sold the same old products kept showing up with "new" names. So a 215mm f4.8 Ilex is the same as a Caltar, and Acutar, and an Acuton.

Acme Synchro 3 shutter: Good old American shutter. No match for a Copal but still serviceable and useable. I wouldn't start out with one though. There are also Acme #1, 2, 4, and 5 designations. 4 and 5 are BIG shutters for big lenses.

George Leimeir: no clue. some frenchman.

Anastigmat: A big deal in 1895. Meant the lens was corrected to be sharp across a flat field from edge to edge more or less. Previous to this improvement the "Rapid Rectilinear" ruled and while sharp in one plain ie. the center it degraded terribly at the edges with all kinds of distortions.

Tessar: A 1902 Anastigmat that was cheaper to produce and won almost universal approval for 100 years. Still in production. A Schneider Xenar is a "tessar type".

Xenar: as above.

Angulon: Schneider Kreuznach "brand" name for their wide angle lenses. The original Angulon was a 6.8 lens that survived into the 1960's. Excellent in the center. Like a wide field tessar.

super angulon: Also Schneider but improved over the original Angulon. They covered 105 degrees where the Angulon covered 90. They are also sharper.

G-Claron: A Schneider "brand name". A superb lens with excellent coverage and they are very affordable for their quality. This is a "plasmat" type. Plasmat's are 6 elements in 4 groups. 2 cemented glasses at either end and 2 more with air spaced. Most modern "Anastigmats" are plasmat type. Highly correced and good for most things. The Symmar is also a plasmat. G-Claron's are f9 widest aperture lenses so can be a bit dark indoors. Symmar's are f5.6 plasmats and much brighter. But at the expense of being bigger and heavier. G-Claron was originally designed for and sold to the reprographic industry for copy cameras but they were always considered excellent for general photography.

Symmar: as above.

Ronar: Is a Rodenstock brand name for a dialyt type process lens. Goerz Artar's, Ronar's and Schneider Repro Claron's as well as many other old process camera lenses are dialyt. 4 glass in 4 groups. Before anti-reflective coatings came along 4/4 was problematic because of flare. Each air to glass interface without coatings loses 4% of the image making light rays. They bounce off. So a 4/4 had 8 of those surfaces to deal with. That's 32% loss. A significant amount. But they were also one of the most perfectly corrected lenses as far as sharpness. So when coatings came available after WWII you could really have your cake and eat it too with this lens type.

Sironar: A Rodenstock version of the plasmat type. Like a Schneider Symmar. universally excellent.

Helimar: Someone mis-spelled Heliar.

Heliar: When Anastigmat's were new in the late 1800's most lens makers sought to have their own design so they didn't have to pay royalties to someone else. Voigtlander took the "Cooke" triplet design which was an anastigmat with 3 glasses in 3 groups and improved it by doubling the elements in front and in back. So they ended up with 5 elements in 3 groups and called it "Heliar". They are superb lenses and have a bit of a cult following with wacko's like myself claiming they have a unique "look" to them. And they do!

tominon: These were japanese products made by Kyocera. Usually a tessar type that is corrected for close-ups. Most of them occur on Polaroid products.

Jim, the original poster has a problem with typing or spelling.

"George Leimeir" probably = Georg Leitmeyr. A lens-maker in Munich. According to the Vade Mecum, made a variety of lenses. The ones that show up most often on eBay are Sytars, some sort of double anastigmat, and Weitwinkels, apparently 4 element WA double Gauss types. I've been tempted by Leitmeyr WA lenses, but have never bought any. If the VM is right, the WAs have large coverage.

About Tominons, there's a history. Made by Tomioka Optical who was, I think, acquired by Yashica, in turn acquired by Kyocera. Tomioka made some interesting-looking fast Tominons in M42 for Yashica's imitation Pentaxes.

Cheers,

Dan

It gets worse:

Symmar: The earliest Symmars were "Dagor" type, and sold as triple convertible. At some point they changed to the Plasmat formula (probably when the coating became good enough to get reasonable contrast with more airspacing), but retained a limited "convertibility". And then they dropped the convertibility, and called it "Symmar-S". Well - they improver the sharpness a little bit too, but not enough to notice IMO.

Angulon: Pre-WWII Angulon lenses had a slightly different curvature of the lenses, and slightly more coverage. Maybe "slightly more illumination" is more correct, as they were said to cover 105° at f:45. I am not entirely convinced that Super-Angulons are sharper than plain Angulons, but they do have more coverage - at least at moderate apertures.

Xenar: Not all Xenars are Tessars. The old "Xenar Typ D" f:3.5 are not.

Helimar: Someone mis-spelled Heliar.

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Or else misspelled Helomar, a Voigtländer triplet.

As to "modern lenses in Copal shutter" - I don't have a single one. Most of mine are in some version of Compur (back to the 1924 model), some in Compound, with a few in Ibsor, Rapax or "rare" shutters. Some are not in shutter at all.

Since I live where I do I have ended up with a lot of fine German lenses, some not-so-fine German lenses, and a very few USAmerican, British or Japanese. Good lenses don't have to be expensive, nor do they have to be new. Single coating is often good enough for all practical purposes, and uncoated lenses can perform very well.

Can anyone fill me in on the Grandagon and Dogmar lenses

Thanks
Gord

Grandagon is Rodenstock's answer to Schneider's Super-Angulon.

Dogmar is an old Goerz lens, I think it's an anastigmat but can't be certain right now.

Grandagon grand. Dogmar woof.

Dogmar Dialyte. Galli goof.

Sorry, Jim, couldn't resist it.

Regards,

Dan

My Dogmar is on a One Shot Camera so what is the reason - is it cheap or does it serve a purpose.

My Grandagon is a 90 f4.5 - big piece of glass - how does it rate?

Gord