What do you think are the design misses?

Huss · Dec 31, 2021

Two cameras that have this I can think of immediately. The Rollei 35 and the Agfa Optima 535/1035/1535 series.
If the batteries die while in use, you have to open the camera back - exposing the film - to change them.

At least the Rollei can operate w/o batteries (and they 'fixed' this with the later SE models), but the Agfas need that juice.
They have a film chamber that the exposed film goes into which supposedly provides some protection, but looking at it, it seems not enough.

What other design misses? The way Barnacks are loaded (ducks and runs...). I mean there is a reason Leica offered the opening back when they introduced the Ms..

madNbad · Dec 31, 2021

The early Nikkormat's, FT and FS. To load the film you start by inserting the leader into the take up spool while holding the film cassette on the right side of the camera. Then you pull the cassette across to drop it in the chamber. Nikon finally figured out most people started by dropping the cassette in first then pulling the film across to the takeup spool and made changes starting with the FTn.

benjiboy · Dec 31, 2021

The original Nikon F didn't have a hinged back, and many news photographers in Vietnam used to complain how difficult it was to change film under fire with them.

Paul Howell · Dec 31, 2021

I used Nikon F in the Air Force, trying changing film while hanging outside the side door on a helicopter in flight, not much better with a Leica M3, I always carried 2 bodies fully loaded. One of the reason I upgraded my personal F to F2 and liked the Canon 7S better than my Leica IIIG.

The Petri Color CC had a similar issue, battery inside the camera body to save space, need to was film by rewinding the film midroll or shoot sunny 16.

albada · Dec 31, 2021

Graphic 35 Electric. The internal switch had one connector, and eventually a bit of dust caused it to not close, making the camera inoperative. The repair required removing the front shutter standard; not a quickie. The problem could easily have been avoided by using a multi-connector switch, which would have added almost nothing to the cost.

Mark Overton

Les Sarile · Dec 31, 2021

benjiboy said:
The original Nikon F didn't have a hinged back, and many news photographers in Vietnam used to complain how difficult it was to change film under fire with them.

Nikon agrees with that revising it in the F2. As I recall, they had an ad that listed a few items including mirror lockup, shutter button forward and others I can't recall at this time. What's funny were the numerous user posts in the magazines stating it was a letdown introducing a hinged back as it "weakens" the body. Wish I kept a copy of that ad if anyone has it.

Of course Canon greatly revised their initial Canonflex even more when they released the Canon F-1. Most prominent is probably the film advance from the bottom to the more normal location that the industry standardized on. Unlike Nikon, they didn't come under too much resistance when the F-1 was released.

gone · Dec 31, 2021

Putting the meter readout on top of the camera is not much help, that one never made sense to me, I want to see it in the viewfinder. Of course, the biggest design error is that except for Nikon, all the other lenses mount in the wrong direction.

Bill Burk · Dec 31, 2021

The Leica M2. There is no ch'ihónít'i, or Navajo imperfection that lets the soul free.

reddesert · Dec 31, 2021

I wish screw mount lenses and bodies, like M39 or M42, had an anti-rotation stop pin or latch that engaged a slot. If the lens is in perfect condition it's not a big deal, but if you have an older lens with a stiff aperture or focus ring, it's possible to unscrew the lens while you're using it. It annoys me that many older rangefinder lenses have an infinity lock (that I don't need and causes problems) yet no mounting lock - if the infinity lock engages you can wind up turning the mount thread.

For tolerance reasons or something, not all screw-mount lenses screw on exactly the right amount to bring the index mark to top dead center, but it would have been possible to make a latch and slot that worked for compatible lenses and didn't interfere with lenses that didn't line up exactly.

Bayonet and breech lock lens mounts solved this problem, obviously.

Bronson Dugnutt · Dec 31, 2021

Bill Burk said:
The Leica M2. There is no ch'ihónít'i, or Navajo imperfection that lets the soul free.

As heard on KGAK AM 1330... Leica really knows how to maximize their advertising dollar.

While not as dire as your camera back plummeting to the earth from a helicopter, a first-world design miss are the many auto-rewind mechanisms that eat the leader. Manually retrieving the film leader is fiddly and can damage the light trap. Having to destroy a film canister is one of the least pleasant experiences when shooting 135, particularly if you bulk load.

There's an elegant sprocket tracing mechanism in the Hanimex Amphibian that implements a leader-saving rewind. Unfortunately, it's another camera you can't change with batteries in without opening the back.

MultiFormat Shooter · Jan 1, 2022

On the Nikkormat EL series the lens has to be removed, and the mirror locked-up to change the battery, since the battery compartment is behind the lens, on the "floor" of the body. Oh, and the battery is always being drained, even when the camera is "off."

AZD · Jan 1, 2022

Specialty batteries of any kind that aren’t rechargeable. Case in point: Practically new Nikon N6006, $25. CR223 battery, $15. Lasts maybe 5 rolls. Sure, I hacked it with 2x CR123 and some aluminum foil, but that’s a pain. Even in the 90s they were more expensive than a bulk pack of AAs. But now that they rival the price of the equipment they power it’s not worth it.

AZD · Jan 1, 2022

And now that I’m thinking of it, the Argus C3 Matchmatic. The normal aperture and shutter speed values are replaced by numbers 3.5 to 8 (aperture) and 4 to 8 (shutter). My understanding is there was a light meter which acted as the secret decoder ring. But if someone gave you just the camera with no meter, and you were 17, and the internet was still mostly a geek thing, you had, indeed, a brick. I kept it for decades out of fondness for the original owner and inability to get rid of any kind of gadget. Finally decoded it a few years ago and made some half decent pictures.

Design fail #2 - The shutter cock tab on all Argus C3s… Even worse than the spinny dial on Barnack Leicas, this lever catches your fingers mid-exposure and turns everything to Bulb. Stupid and infuriating. Between that and the separate wind and cock mechanisms with no interlock, it’s amazing it ever takes a single well exposed picture. And that doesn’t even get to my problems with the focus mechanism…

250swb · Jan 1, 2022

reddesert said:
For tolerance reasons or something, not all screw-mount lenses screw on exactly the right amount to bring the index mark to top dead center, but it would have been possible to make a latch and slot that worked for compatible lenses and didn't interfere with lenses that didn't line up exactly.
.

A lot of LTM lenses aren't meant to have the index mark at the top, yes amazing but true. It's a simple enough reason, the focus scale was close to the body on many Leica LTM lenses and if an accessory was mounted in the cold shoe and obscuring the scale from above (like a flash or viewfinder) it was a pain to look all the way over the top to see the scale, so the lenses were designed so you can look to the side and easily see the offset scale. So not a fault but an improvement.

jay moussy · Jan 1, 2022

Do Retinas with weak film advance gearing qualify?
I have two beautiful ones that I don't use on that account, and it pains me -I may need to break down get a certain forum member involved..?

removedacct1 · Jan 1, 2022

jay moussy said:
Do Retinas with weak or near-broken film advance qualify?
I have two beautiful ones that I don't use on that account, and it pains me -I may need to break down get a certain forum member involved..?

The film advance devices in the various Retinas are actually quite robust, and I rarely find one that's truly "broken". (I service an average of three of them a week) The vast majority just need old lubricants cleaned out and replaced. The IIc/IIIc types (late 1950s) has a problem with the nickel plated brass toothed rack that links the film advance to the cocking of the shutter: if the camera has not been serviced in decades, the lubricants dry out and a lot of extra force is applied to the rack, which inevitably results in distortion/breakage of the teeth. In 1959 it wasn't considered a "flaw", since replacement racks were readily available, but 60 years later, its a different matter. Which models do you have, and can you describe their problems?
The Retina IIa and Ia have a particular issue where the tiny spring that controls the frame counter eventually wears out from metal fatigue, and so the tip breaks off and the frame counter stops working. But that doesn't affect the functioning of the film advance.

abruzzi · Jan 1, 2022

the base of a Sinar Norma is hollow on the bottom, meaning the only QR pates that will work are ones larger than the ridge on base (about 3.5 inches in diameter.)

Jim Jones · Jan 1, 2022

benjiboy said:
The original Nikon F didn't have a hinged back, and many news photographers in Vietnam used to complain how difficult it was to change film under fire with them.

The removable back was certainly inconvenient for most users, but it did permit the use of 250 exposure magazines, Polaroid adapters, and sheet film adapters. I began using the Nikon F system in the 1960s, and never once saw any of those backs in use. It must have been more logical for most photographers to add a press camera to their kit than to use such accessories. The Nikon viewfinder, like the back, was also modular. The several viewfinders and the fine selection of screens were more useful than those interchangeable backs. In the 1930s Leica went through a similar attempt to make a rangefinder camera do many of the things a SLR could do. Some were practical, some were not.

Les Sarile · Jan 1, 2022

I think Nikon overreached by disabling the meter until the film counter gets to position 1 in the F3. This was supposed to make it convenient for the photographer to advance the film when a new roll is installed. Otherwise, a very long exposure may result if the camera was set in aperture priority. Of course in that situation, one only has to put the selector to any other manual position to conclude the exposure and advance the film to the next frame. I can understand them implementing this feature in all their aperture priority cameras released at that time - like the FG, FE2 and FA, since those are not "professional" cameras. Nikon acknowledged this bad design years later when they did not include this feature in the FM3A.

Alan Edward Klein · Jan 1, 2022

With mine, every shot wasn't a keeper.

benjiboy · Jan 1, 2022

Jim Jones said:
The removable back was certainly inconvenient for most users, but it did permit the use of 250 exposure magazines, Polaroid adapters, and sheet film adapters. I began using the Nikon F system in the 1960s, and never once saw any of those backs in use. It must have been more logical for most photographers to add a press camera to their kit than to use such accessories. The Nikon viewfinder, like the back, was also modular. The several viewfinders and the fine selection of screens were more useful than those interchangeable backs. In the 1930s Leica went through a similar attempt to make a rangefinder camera do many of the things a SLR could do. Some were practical, some were not.

The Nikon F 2 , F3 etc, and all the Canon F1 models had removable backs, but they were also hinged because the hinge was spring loaded so the back could be removed.

AnselMortensen · Jan 1, 2022

Bronica ETRS.
I think the rollfilm backs are an ergonomic nightmare.
Battery replacement is a pain, too, especially with the Rapid-Vance winder in use.
Lens IQ is fantastic, though...and with an eye-level prism and the Rapid-Vance winder, (and a full battery), it's fun to shoot with.
I got some Shanghai 220 to run through it with a 220 back....32 exposures without reloading! Yay! ( Hope I don't drop the film).

Huss · Jan 1, 2022

The plastic door-latch on the F100. Even the Nikon EM had a metal one.

ericB&W · Jan 1, 2022

With The Nikon F2 one must remember to mount the motor drive
before loading the film , otherwhise light enters in the camera when
the open-close key is removed.

Huss · Jan 1, 2022

The Leica R8/R9 not having a dedicated on/off switch. Instead they incorporate it into the exposure mode switch. So every time you turn the camera on, you have to turn the dial through M, A, P, T, F to get where you want.

What do you think are the design misses?

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