What do you do when you have a spill?

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MrBrowning

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I've been lucky so far and haven't had any major spills of any kind in the darkroom. I've had a few close calls but luckily both times I've knocked over a bottle or hit a tray it's either been empty (the bottle) or in the case of the tray it wan't very full and nothing left it. So when you do have a spill how do you clean it up? Is several times cleaning the area with something like dawn dish soap good enough or is there a better way?
 

BradS

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I've broken beakers in the kitchen while mixing D-76...a liter of chemistry on the floor is not a big deal. Grab the old towels from the laundry room and throw them on the floor...wipe up with clean water.
 

Maris

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One of the worst spills is if you break the bulb of a mercury thermometer. The globules of mercury go everywhere and settle into tiny cracks and crevices. You could have mercury vapour levels way over the safe limit for a couple of years. The remedy is in the darkroom too. Sweep up all the loose mercury and then swab the floor with dilute sulphide sepia toner. The stray mercury gets converted into non-volatile, geologically stable mercuric sulphide. Danger over.
 

jp80874

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Ammonia based fixer will dry white and smell forever. Go sniff in any college gang darkroom. Rinse down the drain then wash with laundry soap and rinse. Do this until when dry you don't see any white.

Take a positive look. This will also clean any dust and dirt on the floor.

John Powers
 

removed account4

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a 16x20 tray of dektol spilled on my floor once
just mopped it up and washed it down with clean water
 

paul_c5x4

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The darkroom used to house my internet modem and router until the day I spilt a tray of fixer. Mopped up the worst of the spill and wiped everything down with a damp cloth. The modem however, demonstrated its dislike of fixer and just fizzed at me for a few minutes before going off-line for good. Rang the hell desk in India to complain about a line fault (omitting to mention anything about the tray of fixer), and the following day an engineer called with a free upgrade.

Electronic equipment is no longer kept anywhere near the wet areas, and I am a little more careful when moving large full trays.
 
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MrBrowning

MrBrowning

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Thanks for the replies everyone. Seems like i'm basically on track if (hopefully not when) i have a major spill of some kind.

Maris that's good to know I'll be putting that in my darkroom notebook in case i ever need it.

JP i rarely dump fixer down the drain (I'm on a septic tank) but I'll keep that in mind.
 

bvy

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Those squeezable PET bottles are great. Just be careful how you squeeze them. I ended up with C-41 bleach all over my shirt and shorts during an early C-41 session. I stripped immediately and rinsed the clothes. Surprisingly nothing stained.
 

MattKing

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Those squeezable PET bottles are great. Just be careful how you squeeze them. I ended up with C-41 bleach all over my shirt and shorts during an early C-41 session. I stripped immediately and rinsed the clothes. Surprisingly nothing stained.
So you bleached yourself.

Did you re-develop?
 

Hexavalent

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I keep a bag of kitty litter in the darkroom for big spills - so far, I only had to use it once (large tray of fix).

Some of my emulsion-making chems are quite nasty (aldehydes, strong ammonia, etc.), I have a professional "spill kit" in case of a major incident.
 

RattyMouse

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Every chemical should have a safety data sheet that describes how to clean up that particular chemical. You should ALWAYS have on hand the safety data sheet for any chemical on hand.
 

Rudeofus

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One thing you may prepare in advance is a solid pair of nitrile gloves. Some of these photographic liquids may not be overly toxic, but quite caustic to the point where you don't want to touch them with your bare hands.

Also think about chemical compatibility, some bathes don't want extra alkali (e.g. all bathes containing Ammonium ion), others are sensitive to acids (e.g. Sulfides, but also Sulfite). Know what you have in front of you, so that you react correctly when things go wrong.
 

pdeeh

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Also think about chemical compatibility ... Know what you have in front of you, so that you react correctly when things go wrong.

While the often-suggested "read the MSDS" is excellent advice, and a surprising amount can be gleaned from them even by non-chemists such as myself, they are still relatively technical documents aimed at the industrial user rather than the darkroom worker.

One can also glean quite a lot from trawling posts here and elsewhere (hence I know that Sodium sulfite can be used to reduce the toxicity of bichromate before disposal, for instance) but this kind of information is rarely gathered in one place.

It might be very helpful for those of us who are not chemistry graduates (and who therefore don't know what to conclude about chemical compatibility) for you (or someone else) to write up a primer on these interactions suitable for the intelligent non-specialist and post it in the articles section.

So, for the commonly used photographic chemicals, what not to mix with what, what neutralises what and so on.
 

Rudeofus

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While the often-suggested "read the MSDS" is excellent advice
What I am about to write will most likely sound like heresy, but allow me to state it anyway: MSDS tend to be overly cautious to the point of sounding ridiculous, even for compounds which we eat every day, see this example for Sodium Chloride:

Precautions: Keep locked up.. Do not ingest. Do not breathe dust. Avoid contact with eyes. Wear suitable protective clothing. If ingested, seek medical advice immediately and show the container or the label.

Storage: Keep container tightly closed. Keep container in a cool, well-ventilated area. Hygroscopic

Engineering Controls: Use process enclosures, local exhaust ventilation, or other engineering controls to keep airborne levels below recommended exposure limits. If user operations generate dust, fume or mist, use ventilation to keep exposure to airborne contaminants below the exposure limit.

Personal Protection: Splash goggles. Lab coat. Dust respirator. Be sure to use an approved/certified respirator or equivalent. Gloves.

Chronic Effects on Humans: MUTAGENIC EFFECTS: Mutagenic for mammalian somatic cells. Mutagenic for bacteria and/or yeast.

Other Toxic Effects on Humans: Slightly hazardous in case of skin contact (irritant), of ingestion, of inhalation.

If you take such information at face value, you wouldn't want this compound anywhere near your house ...
 

pdeeh

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Well, that illustrates my point in a slightly different way, but it doesn't detract from the value that can be gained from reading an MSDS.

The unwary person might easily read that Sodium chloride example and conclude that therefore any MSDS can be safely ignored - which isn't the case.

Don't forget Rudeofus that you come from a position of knowing a lot of this stuff already: You mustn't assume everyone knows what you know.

It further underlines that "A Guide For The Unwary" would be very useful
 

jp80874

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Thanks for the replies everyone. Seems like i'm basically on track if (hopefully not when) i have a major spill of some kind.

Maris that's good to know I'll be putting that in my darkroom notebook in case i ever need it.

JP i rarely dump fixer down the drain (I'm on a septic tank) but I'll keep that in mind.

The assumption was that you had already spilled and needed to clean up. The fixer was on the floor. I can't make it go back in the tray or bottle. The only way I know how to get rid of it in that situation is wash down the drain and follow with soapy water down the drain. By then the fixer is very dilute.

Our house is also on a 50 year old septic tank. Normal disposal of fixer is back in gallon bottles and a trip to the local college's silver recovery system. They allow that for all students, even 74 year old ones, to help the maintenance funding and to help keep the area green.

John Powers
 

RattyMouse

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While the often-suggested "read the MSDS" is excellent advice, and a surprising amount can be gleaned from them even by non-chemists such as myself, they are still relatively technical documents aimed at the industrial user rather than the darkroom worker.

One can also glean quite a lot from trawling posts here and elsewhere (hence I know that Sodium sulfite can be used to reduce the toxicity of bichromate before disposal, for instance) but this kind of information is rarely gathered in one place.

It might be very helpful for those of us who are not chemistry graduates (and who therefore don't know what to conclude about chemical compatibility) for you (or someone else) to write up a primer on these interactions suitable for the intelligent non-specialist and post it in the articles section.

So, for the commonly used photographic chemicals, what not to mix with what, what neutralises what and so on.

All this is written on the MSDS. A person with a high school education should be able to understand this (the text of an MSDS). This is not college level material. Remember, MSDS' are written for everyone and cover the exact question you have asked. Most spills happen during shipment, where plenty of non college graduates are employed.

How to clean up Kodak HC-110:

"Absorb spill with vermiculite or other inert material, then place in a container for chemical waste. Clean surface thoroughly to remove residual contamination."

Ilford's DD-X:

"SPILL CLEAN-UP PROCEDURES:
Use appropriate protective clothing. Do not contaminate drainage or waterways. Absorb spill with non-reactive absorbent and place in non-reactive containers for disposal. Contain Spill. Use large quantities of water to flush small spills to sanitary sewer if local regulations permit. Do not flush to septic tank. See Section 13 for disposal considerations. Flush with plenty of water to clean spillage area. Do not let washing down water contaminate ponds or waterways. Inform Authorities if large amounts are involved."
 

RattyMouse

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What I am about to write will most likely sound like heresy, but allow me to state it anyway: MSDS tend to be overly cautious to the point of sounding ridiculous, even for compounds which we eat every day, see this example for Sodium Chloride:



If you take such information at face value, you wouldn't want this compound anywhere near your house ...

You do realize that this MSDS was written for people *working* with the chemical and not filling their salt shaker right? There are legitimate hazards to working with chemicals.
 
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MrBrowning

MrBrowning

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The assumption was that you had already spilled and needed to clean up. The fixer was on the floor. I can't make it go back in the tray or bottle. The only way I know how to get rid of it in that situation is wash down the drain and follow with soapy water down the drain. By then the fixer is very dilute.

Our house is also on a 50 year old septic tank. Normal disposal of fixer is back in gallon bottles and a trip to the local college's silver recovery system. They allow that for all students, even 74 year old ones, to help the maintenance funding and to help keep the area green.

John Powers

Point Taken. When I replied I was thinking of the gang darkroom part of your comment. I'll have to contact the local college and see if they are willing to take it. I've been waiting for the yearly hazardous waste drop off we have here. Thanks.
 

Rudeofus

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The unwary person might easily read that Sodium chloride example and conclude that therefore any MSDS can be safely ignored - which isn't the case.

That's exactly my big problem with these MSDSs: they create pointless panic about completely harmless compounds. An MSDS that screams "Sodium Chloride DANGER: MUST WEAR SAFETY GOGGLES AND RESPIRATOR AT ALL TIMES" makes people more careless with Pyrogallol, p-Phenylenediamine, Sodium Sulfide, Dichromate and all other dark room nasties.

Don't forget Rudeofus that you come from a position of knowing a lot of this stuff already: You mustn't assume everyone knows what you know.

Quite to the contrary, I have no formal education in chemistry, but have picked up tidbits in photo chemistry from playing with it. This makes me (and many APUGers) exactly the kind of person most likely running into accidents and mishaps, because I often think I know something that turns out wrong. I am exactly the person who should read helpful safety advice, and instead I get MSDS of the kind I just showed.

And the result is obvious: while every thread about photo chemistry is filled with "read the MSDS" advice, we have plenty of folks here moving prints from dev to stop bath with their bare hands, some proudly proclaiming "I stopped doing this when I got stains on my prints". And pyro developers receive a lot more cheers here than those based on Ascorbic Acid.

It further underlines that "A Guide For The Unwary" would be very useful

Every decent book on photo chemistry has a chapter on this, including the Cookbooks. These chapters are a lot more helpful than all the MSDSs I ever read.

You do realize that this MSDS was written for people *working* with the chemical and not filling their salt shaker right? There are legitimate hazards to working with chemicals.

"Working" with Sodium Chloride in lab quantities is no different than a chef cooking spaghetti. I understand that 25 tons of Sodium Chloride create different hazards, and the MSDS I linked to makes the distinction between lab quantities and industrial amounts. The recommended safety precautions for lab quantities of NaCl, and these are the ones I quoted, are still ludicrous.
 

Mr Bill

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I've worked in the photofinishing industry for quite a lot of years, including handling what we'd call "spill procedures." I'm not going to talk from that aspect, just mentioning that I have some experience in this sort of thing.

My opinion is that everyone using photochemicals should have some idea, ahead of time, what they are going to do if something goes wrong. Of course, you can always wing it on the fly when something goes wrong, but once something goes badly for you, you'll probably start planning out the next "event." For example, what do you do if some of that developer splashes in your eye? Or what if my gallon bottle of whatever gets broken? Once you start thinking ahead, you may start keeping an eyewash bottle around, or start storing your chemical bottles in a plastic tub. Or maybe you start keeping a wet/dry shop-vac around (don't even THINK about using it with a flammable liquid, though).

I think the MSDS (material safety data sheets) on various chemicals are probably about the best way to pick up background info on what you're using. I'm from the U.S., and we first had to deal with these as part of government regulations loosely referred to as "Right to Know." They applied to what we call "the workplace," which has a certain definition; minimum number of employees, etc. Part of the law was that all employees who might forseeably be exposed to certain chemicals had to be formally trained in how to read and interpret the MSDS for those chemicals (the companies are required to keep a library of readily-available MSDS). So if you are just a hobbyist, the MSDS were not really intended for you, and if you want to use them, the burden of learning what they mean falls on you. At least in the U.S.

When my company first starting collecting the MSDSs, we found a significant variation in the quality of info. The best seemed to come from reputable manufacturers, such as Kodak, who gave much more complete info, as opposed to some aftermarket suppliers, where many of the items would be listed as "not known," or that sort of thing. Over the years, it seemed that even the "good" MSDS became overly "conservative." I presume it was due to litigation, in the same way that a lawn mower might have labels warning not to stick your fingers or toes underneath while the engine is running. Still, it is hard to find a better starting point than a good MSDS.

Having said all this, for a hobbyist at home, the best thing is probably, for most common darkroom chemicals, to mop or vacuum it up, then rinse it down the drain. But it's up to the user to determine what's ok or not; it all depends on "applicable regulations."
 

Sirius Glass

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I found that Sham Wow, https://www.shamwow.com/?refcode=1002&ot=tm, works even better than advertized to absorb liquid spill quickly. I keep Sham Wow clothes in my wet darkroom with a small stock pile of spares. I also use a separate set in the kitchen. I highly recommend them.

I do not have a connection to Sham Wow.
 

lajolla

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Most of us probably remember our college chem labs and the fact that we had ventilation hoods over all wet-mixing areas. When one spills in the darkroom, the chemical vapors from the evaporating spilled solutions will pose a greater hazard to your lungs than the solutions' harmful effects on your floor or walls. As others have wisely posted on this thread - wipe up the spilled solution asap - and keep good ventilation in the darkroom :smile:
 
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MrBrowning

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I agree with what had been said about the MSDS sheets both being useful and how they make some chemicals sound worse than they are. I agree with wearing gloves and taking the proper steps to be safe. However the MSDS sheets aren't always enough to tell you what not to do. The MSDS sheet we have at work for ammonia doesn't say in there not to use bleach to clean up a spill. I know better but not everyone does...I've seen that in person. My point being they are only as good as the person reading them.

I also agree about having good ventilation. I used a basement bathroom and ran an air purifier and the fan but wished I had a little more sometimes.

Thanks everyone for your responses.

I kept a mop, a bucket, a towel, 2 rolls of paper towels (for small spills) and the ultra concentrated Dawn dish soap for clean up.

Are there any darkroom chemicals that shouldn't be mixed with certain cleaning chemicals? Like the bleach and ammonia?
 
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