What causes XT-3 to go like this in few days after mixing?

radiant · Mar 10, 2022

I mixed into distilled water a new batch of XT-3. After few days I went to develop film and found out that all my stock looked like this.

I contacted Adox and they wrote back that there isn't any known issues with the batch I was using and are going to send me new batches anyway. What a great company that is, customer service is top notch.

So I guess this is user error, but what went wrong?

Don_ih · Mar 10, 2022

Is it phenadone not dissolved in the water?

radiant · Mar 10, 2022

Don Heisz said:
Is it phenadone not dissolved in the water?

The batch watch completely clear before I split into bottles..

MARTIE · Mar 10, 2022

My only experience at the moment is with Kodak Xtol so you may find that this may or may not apply.
I believe I may have had something similar so I bought a bucket purely dedicated to just mixing up Xtol.
Likewise, I only use 'clean' storage bottles that previously held demineralised water.

So my thoughts are; had the initial mixing jug/bucket been used for anything else before?
And similarly, the storage bottles?

radiant · Mar 10, 2022

MARTIE said:
My only experience at the moment is with Kodak Xtol so you may find that this may or may not apply.
I believe I may have had something similar so I bought a bucket purely dedicated to just mixing up Xtol.
Likewise, I only use 'clean' storage bottles that previously held demineralised water.

So my thoughts are; had the initial mixing jug/bucket been used for anything else before?
And similarly, the storage bottles?

Good questions + ideas. The bucket might have been in other use but cleaned afterwards. That doesn't rule out that it would have not been contaminated.

The bottles are only for XT-3 and I rinsed those before use. Originally those were distilled water bottles.

But yes good idea, dedicated XT3-bucket to shopping list, for sure. With a lid when storing it..

Don_ih · Mar 10, 2022

radiant said:
The batch watch completely clear before I split into bottles..

Yet it looks exactly like phenadone in water (but is probably something else). Did you try heating it to see if it goes clear? That may have happened because the solution got too cold. (I'm not saying it did get too cold - I have no idea.)

radiant · Mar 10, 2022

Don Heisz said:
Yet it looks exactly like phenadone in water (but is probably something else). Did you try heating it to see if it goes clear? That may have happened because the solution got too cold. (I'm not saying it did get too cold - I have no idea.)

I'm keeping those in quite cold place 10-15 degC but at least one bottle was in warm place.

How much should I heat these?

mcfitz · Mar 10, 2022

In the bottles you have stored, is there a sediment at the bottom or is the stuff suspended, as in the beaker?
I had a batch of x-tol that developed stuff that looks similar. It settled to the bottom of the bottles, but would easily be disturbed to look like what you are seeing.
I filtered the contents of one bottle, placed it in a clean one, and before long there was sediment at the bottom again.
I filtered the developer before using and it worked fine.
We have no idea what caused this. The next batch of x-tol was made using demineralised water, not distilled water, and so far, no problem. However all that proves, so far, is that there's no problem with the new batch.

radiant · Mar 10, 2022

mcfitz said:
In the bottles you have stored, is there a sediment at the bottom or is the stuff suspended, as in the beaker?
I had a batch of x-tol that developed stuff that looks similar. It settled to the bottom of the bottles, but would easily be disturbed to look like what you are seeing.
I filtered the contents of one bottle, placed it in a clean one, and before long there was sediment at the bottom again.
I filtered the developer before using and it worked fine.
We have no idea what caused this. The next batch of x-tol was made using demineralised water, not distilled water, and so far, no problem. However all that proves, so far, is that there's no problem with the new batch.

The bottles I used were previously used on XT-3, thrown aside when empty. Before filling the bottles I rinsed those well with water. I didn't really inspect the bottles.

There is a good chance that the bottles contained dried developer. I probably need to let the bottles sit filled with water before using..

mcfitz · Mar 10, 2022

Sorry, what I was asking is this- can you see this stuff In a thick layer at the bottom of the bottles the problem batch is stored into? Or is it always in suspension, even in the bottles, as in the beaker?

Donald Qualls · Mar 10, 2022

This looks a bit like it might have gotten too cold, leading to something coming out of solution. Have you tried heating to around 50 C/120 F to see if it redissolves?

pentaxuser · Mar 10, 2022

Donald Qualls said:
This looks a bit like it might have gotten too cold, leading to something coming out of solution. Have you tried heating to around 50 C/120 F to see if it redissolves?

Would 10-15 degrees C constitute too cold for what is to all intents and purposes Xtol? I store my Xtol in the darkroom and in the winter it can fall a couple of degrees below 15 for the hours I am not in there

OP did you mention to ADOX that it is stored at between 10 and 15 C? As those temperatures are not really that low then I's had thought that ADOX would mention in its instructions not to let it fall under say 16C if between 10-15 can cause this

I certainly never saw any mention of this in the Xtol instructions

pentaxuser

Don_ih · Mar 10, 2022

Adox' site says to keep between 10 and 25 degrees.
I'd still try heating it up. Also, if that's the stock solution, when you dilute it, it may completely dissolve.

Donald Qualls · Mar 10, 2022

If you think the darkroom is getting down to 10 C, it might well have been colder than that for some hours one night or another.

radiant · Mar 10, 2022

mcfitz said:
Sorry, what I was asking is this- can you see this stuff In a thick layer at the bottom of the bottles the problem batch is stored into? Or is it always in suspension, even in the bottles, as in the beaker?

It was at the bottom now the solution had been still.

The particles were more clumped, looked like disintegrated tissue paper floating around.

radiant · Mar 10, 2022

Donald Qualls said:
This looks a bit like it might have gotten too cold, leading to something coming out of solution. Have you tried heating to around 50 C/120 F to see if it redissolves?

Currently doing it. I probably cannot reach 50C but maybe lower temperature could do it?

pentaxuser said:
OP did you mention to ADOX that it is stored at between 10 and 15 C? As those temperatures are not really that low then I's had thought that ADOX would mention in its instructions not to let it fall under say 16C if between 10-15 can cause this

No I didn't mention as it didn't come up to my mind. I have stored Xtol and previous batches (perhaps) of XT-3 in the cold side.

But yeah, it is winter and this is an old house. So definely chilly storage conditions. That is very likely to cause this.

radiant · Mar 10, 2022

Donald Qualls said:
If you think the darkroom is getting down to 10 C, it might well have been colder than that for some hours one night or another.

For sure. The bottles are stored in a bucket on floor, so the temperature can drop down there. There has not been any extreme coldness here in few weeks .. But maybe XT-3 has a bit lower tolerance for the cold. Xtol batches has been stored same way many times.

Donald Qualls · Mar 10, 2022

radiant said:
I probably cannot reach 50C but maybe lower temperature could do it?

Unless you're in an American rental property, your hot tap water should be at or close to 50 C; you could use that as a bath for the bottle/beaker. Alternatively, you should be able to get a couple liters that hot in a microwave oven without difficulty.

I suggest that temperature because that's how hot many developers are normally mixed; sodium sulfite, another others, dissolves much more readily at that temperature (yes, Xtol claims it doesn't need heating to dissolve, but it certainly does no harm).

radiant · Mar 10, 2022

Donald Qualls said:
Unless you're in an American rental property, your hot tap water should be at or close to 50 C; you could use that as a bath for the bottle/beaker. Alternatively, you should be able to get a couple liters that hot in a microwave oven without difficulty.

My tap water is easily 50C and I just changed the water. The temperature had dropped quite significantly so I assume the bottles will hardly go over 40 C. I will go and take a look + temperature reading soon.

radiant · Mar 10, 2022

As I expected, the bottles were at 35 degC. I'm not going to spend any more effort on trying to heat those up. I placed few over my central oil heater if that helps. If it doesn't, I just mix another batch.

The bottles were still full of those flakes.

Helge · Mar 10, 2022

I have some “tissue paper” in my XT3 too (kept at room temperature). Doesn’t seem to affect the performance though.

Would filtering it through a coffee filter be a good idea, or unnecessarily oxygenating?

I’m reluctant to talk too much about it, since I don’t want to throw a small manufacturer under the bus because of momentary problems.
On the other hand they should know about it, and we should be able to share experiences.

mshchem · Mar 10, 2022

And here we go

What causes XT-3 to go like this in few days after mixing?

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