What caused this failure?

relistan · Oct 17, 2020

Hey folks, I would love some help identifying what went wrong with these negatives.

This was fresh-dated Portra 160, stored at room temperature in the dark for about a year in the unopened, original packaging. Lab developed at a place here in Dublin that focuses on film and has done a good job in the past. I am very disappointed with all the spotting on the negatives. It's particularly noticeable in the sky. Is this a film or backing paper failure, or did the lab mess it up? I at first suspected my scanner but I re-scanned some other negatives and they are all fine, so it's definitely in the negatives. I thought there might be something on the surface of the negatives so I re-soaked and washed one of them to see if it made any difference. It did not.

Here's the full image and a crop from the sky in the upper right.

Help appreciated!

GLS · Oct 17, 2020

This looks like an issue caused by humidity interacting with the backing paper. I had similar mottling problems with TMY-2 batches prior to the switch over to the new shiny backing paper. Did this roll come with the old matte style backing paper?

I would check the film with a loupe to rule out scanning issues, but if it's on the film then I would suspect the above. If so Kodak will very likely replace that roll and any others from the same box.

relistan · Oct 17, 2020

Thanks for the reply. The humidity theory was also one that I had thought of. But it was never out of the original packaging so that seemed less likely to me. Are you saying you had the same with unopened rolls?

GLS said:
Did this roll come with the old matte style backing paper?

Good question. I cannot be sure now. It was the only roll I bought at that time and I no longer have the backing paper.

GLS said:
I would check the film with a loupe to rule out scanning issues, but if it's on the film then I would suspect the above. If so Kodak will very likely replace that roll and any others from the same box.

I did check with an old Agfa loupe, but I can't see anything on the negative. It's pretty faint even in the scans. Maybe I'm just not good enough with a loupe. As I said though, I did re-scan some other negatives from Portra 160 and the scanner was fine.

Thanks!

GLS · Oct 17, 2020

relistan said:
Thanks for the reply. The humidity theory was also one that I had thought of. But it was never out of the original packaging so that seemed less likely to me. Are you saying you had the same with unopened rolls?

Yes. It was present to different degrees in sealed rolls from three separate batches, all with the old paper. I can only assume it was a manufacturing issue.

Here is the thread I started where these issues were discussed:

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/t-max-400-mottling-in-negatives.163354/

In the end I got replacement boxes with the new paper and all trace of this problem was then gone.

relistan · Oct 17, 2020

GLS said:
Here is the thread I started where these issues were discussed:

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/t-max-400-mottling-in-negatives.163354/

Ah, this does look quite similar. I think you are are right. Bummer. As this was the only roll I had of this batch I think it's not worth the effort to try to get anything back from Kodak. But it does make me suspicious now of any other rolls I may have with the old paper. I know I have a handful of rolls of Ektar 100 in the freezer. And of course, I lost a roll that had some pretty nice shots on it.

Thanks!
Karl

GLS · Oct 17, 2020

relistan said:
Ah, this does look quite similar. I think you are are right. Bummer. As this was the only roll I had of this batch I think it's not worth the effort to try to get anything back from Kodak. But it does make me suspicious now of any other rolls I may have with the old paper. I know I have a handful of rolls of Ektar 100 in the freezer. And of course, I lost a roll that had some pretty nice shots on it.

Thanks!
Karl

Yes it is an annoyance. It may still be worth contacting Kodak even if you can't remember the batch number; just explain the problem to them (and send them an example photo) and they may well send you another roll. There was no quibbling from them when I did.

The new paper is quite distinctive from the old as it is much more glossy. I think at this point Kodak has updated all of their 120 product line with the new paper. If you dig around online I'm sure you will be able to find from which batch numbers onward they started using the new paper with each emulsion. For TMY-2 it is batch 159.

Good luck!

MattKing · Oct 17, 2020

The batch number will be in the film rebate - look for really tiny numbers near frame numbers 11 and 12.
Please try one further experiment. Rescan the negative with the film still oriented the same way (emulsion up, or emulsion down) but otherwise turned around 180 degrees. See if the mottling is identical, or if it moves. If it moves, the problem is a different one.

Les Sarile · Oct 17, 2020

relistan said:
Hey folks, I would love some help identifying what went wrong with these negatives.
I at first suspected my scanner but I re-scanned some other negatives and they are all fine, so it's definitely in the negatives. I thought there might be something on the surface of the negatives so I re-soaked and washed one of them to see if it made any difference. It did not.

What is the scanner?
What other film types are you comparing to?

I've shot many rolls of Portra 160, 400 and 800 and heve never encountered this mottling effect.
Here is an example of a full res scan of Kodak Portra 160 using a Coolscan with no pre or post work.

Full res version -> http://www.fototime.com/F5B749941344EA4/orig.jpg

relistan · Oct 17, 2020

MattKing said:
The batch number will be in the film rebate - look for really tiny numbers near frame numbers 11 and 12.
Please try one further experiment. Rescan the negative with the film still oriented the same way (emulsion up, or emulsion down) but otherwise turned around 180 degrees. See if the mottling is identical, or if it moves. If it moves, the problem is a different one.

Wow, thanks MattKing, I would never have found that batch number without looking hard for it. I have it now: B6171011. I just re-scanned with it flipped 180 degrees and the spots are in the exact same spot, so I'd say it's on the film for sure.

Les Sarile said:
What is the scanner?
What other film types are you comparing to?

I don't think it's relevant but it's an Epson V550. I've scanned a lot of different films, including Portra 160 and never have seen this.

Cheers,
Karl

koraks · Oct 18, 2020

I've had somewhat similar mottling issues with portra 160, but it only on the one/two frames at the start if the roll, so the outside most layers when it was stored. Stored sealed, refrigerated, and as I recall one or two years out of date. The pattern was slightly different from yours, but seemed associated with the backing paper.

relistan · Oct 18, 2020

I just realized I can stick this negative on my B&W enlarger and look at it that way to maybe validate for sure that it is on the negative. If I can't see it with my eyes I can look through the grain focuser maybe. Will do that in a bit and report back.

Donald Qualls · Oct 18, 2020

If the mottling followed image features when you rotated the negative in the scanner, it's on the negative, without question. It's subtle enough, however, that you're likely to have trouble seeing it with the naked eye, either on a light table or in the enlarger projection.

relistan · Oct 19, 2020

GLS said:
Yes it is an annoyance. It may still be worth contacting Kodak even if you can't remember the batch number; just explain the problem to them (and send them an example photo) and they may well send you another roll. There was no quibbling from them when I did.

At your suggestion I wrote to Kodak, using the address from the thread you linked. Kodak agreed right away that it was a backing paper issue and thanks to MattKing I was able to supply the batch number. They identified it as one of the batches that was affected. They are sending me new film. Very good, and FAST customer service. I'm rather impressed actually. Thanks for the help!

koraks · Oct 19, 2020

That's good to hear. And it's also useful to know that Kodak has confirmed this to be an issue with their color negative films as well. I didn't know this.

GLS · Oct 19, 2020

relistan said:
At your suggestion I wrote to Kodak, using the address from the thread you linked. Kodak agreed right away that it was a backing paper issue and thanks to MattKing I was able to supply the batch number. They identified it as one of the batches that was affected. They are sending me new film. Very good, and FAST customer service. I'm rather impressed actually. Thanks for the help!

Good to hear!

MattKing · Oct 19, 2020

koraks said:
That's good to hear. And it's also useful to know that Kodak has confirmed this to be an issue with their color negative films as well. I didn't know this.

They had done so in the past, and there are posts here on Photrio about that, but there are a lot more posts about how they have dealt with the problem with the black and white films.
My sense is that the problem took longer to reveal itself with the colour negative films.

relistan · Oct 19, 2020

What they tell me regarding Portra 160 is:

New backing paper was implemented with emulsion 6202

My emulsion was 6171 and therefore was affected. Hopefully that helps someone else.

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