What bulk loader and cassette?

ColdEye · May 26, 2020

So I was given some fomapan 400 and triX in 100ft for 35mm. I have no bulk loader, never really considered bulk loading. But now that I have this I might as well give it a try. I read some threads but they were pretty old and I am wondering what people are using now. As for the bulk loaders, I just need something fool proof. I dont mind counting mentally how many cranks I have done. As for the cassettes, plastic or metal? Seems that there are specific cassettes for the Nikon F2 and Leica screw mounts, I want to maybe try those too. Looking up the prices of some films I like, it seems bulk loading might be what I will do from now on, except for Kodak films. It seems they are cheaper if bought in rolls.

abruzzi · May 26, 2020

I dislike the “teardrop” shaped loader. I have one, and don’t use it. Two reasons, first, it is fiddly to use, and second, unless you use it in darkness, it exposes about two inches of film at the end of the roll. This means that usually the last two shots are lost, but I don’t know that until after I take the shot. I use a Lloyd’s loader, I have three of them. Their drawback is that as you spool up film, it is pulled through a felt light trap, so there is a risk of scratching, though I’ve never had it happen to me. If you are careful while loading, at worst you will lose half of the last frame.

Most of the new cassettes I’ve used are pretty junky. The plastic ones feel a little less bad than the new metal ones. I came across a recommendation a few years ago to get old Kodak cassettes. I found a box of 8 unused for a reasonable price, and I’ve been happy with them, they’ve lasted a while so far. If I couldn’t get those, I’d be using the plastic ones.

Bormental · May 26, 2020

I was in your shoes a few months ago, and here's what I found (and purchased):

Bulk loader. There are two types: those with a felt light trap (Lloyd is still being sold) and those that do not touch the film (Watson, Alden). Some say there's higher chance of scratching the film if a piece of dirt gets stuck in the felt. I got myself an unused, old-stock Alden for $25 on eBay and I love it. It features reliable indicator of frames, is well-made and foolproof.
Cassettes. Currently there are no usable plastic cassettes available for sale. What you see is basically the same item re-branded as "Ultrafine" or "Kelt" and it uses defective material for the light-trap felt - it falls part very quickly, I wouldn't want this junk flying around inside my camera. I found two sources of excellent metal cassettes: Arista-branded at Freestyle and Ultrafine Metal.They're both pretty good, I've used them repeatedly without problems.

[EDIT] Yes, you can look for "Kodak Snap-Caps" cassettes on eBay, it's possible to spot an old stock. I have those too and I'd say that Arista is better made. The previous poster is correct, Watson/Alden both waste more film, but it is just one frame for me, and I always load exactly 35 frames and stop at 35, so there's no risk.

dourbalistar · May 26, 2020

Like Bormental, I use a Watson 100 model loader. I bulk load almost all my film, and I've been using the Watson for a few years with no issues. To waste less film, after I tape the end of the film to the spool and close up the film cassette, I put the whole thing into a dark bag. Then I open up light trap on the loader, drag the cassette into position, and close the cover. Then I take it out of the bag and wind as normal. A bit kludgy, but I reliably get 36 usable frames when I spool the counter to 40 (accounting for the leader). I can get about 18-19 36-exposure rolls from a 100-foot bulk roll this way.

For cassettes, I've mainly used plastic cassettes. I started with the Arista branded ones from Freestyle, have a few random Kalt ones from B&H, and about a dozen or so Ultrafine ones. There is some loose felt material in the Ultrafine ones, but I made sure to brush and blow off the loose bits before I started using them. No issues with any of them so far. Recently, I ordered some of the metal DX coded ones from Photo Warehouse. Again, no issues so far, but I do find the snap caps a bit more fiddly, and for some reason, the snap-on cap is a bit less confidence inspiring than the screw-top plastic ones. YMMV.

AgX · May 26, 2020

Concernening the bulk loader, one really should evaluate whether one needs a loader at all !

(I myself started bulkloading without any trouble not even knowing that such as a loader existed.)

The benefit of a good loader is that
-) one can load in daylight
-) can precisely control the length being being installed
-) has information on the remaining length

The disadvantage of a bad loader is
-) scratching
-) fogging
-) electrostatic (?)

Also some loader may not work with some core.

awty · May 26, 2020

I have and use both the Loyd & Watson, both work without an issue.
I use, metal, plastic and reused cassettes, all work fine as long as you anchor the film correctly so you dont wind it off the spool and if you do you just need to take it out in darkness and wind onto your developing spool.
I have a Leica cassette, too much of a pain to use, when the other cassettes work fine.
Theres nothing fool proof, but if you take your time, watch a few youtube vids, Im sure you will manage, or you can just post them to me and I will put them to good use.

guangong · May 26, 2020

I still have a couple boxes of unused new Kodak cassettes bought decades ago. However, the only cassettes that I reload are Leitz and Zeiss for respective rangefinder cameras as well as those for Minox and Minolta 16. The only actual money saving comes from loading the latter two since much cheaper as well as greater choice of film. In Leica and Zeiss, the advantage is that film never touches cassette openings.
The most important ingredient when bulk loading is cleanliness! No matter which loader.

Pentode · May 26, 2020

I use Watson and Lloyd loaders without issues (I’ve scratched one roll out of hundreds but that was due to my own carelessness and no fault of the loader). I used to have an Alden loader, almost identical to the Watson and that was fine, too.

I use metal cassettes. I have a mix of recent (probably Ultrafine), older Kalt, Kodak Snap-Caps, old Ansco, Ilford and Agfa and some peculiar Russian cassettes. I also reuse standard commercial cassettes by taping onto the old leader.

I estimate about 75% or more of my film is loaded by me and, as Guangong said, as long as you’re meticulous about cleanliness you shouldn’t run into any big issues.

ColdEye · May 26, 2020

Thank you everyone for the detailed responses. I will check ebay for whatever decent loader shows up, regardless if it is the watson or lloyd. . As for the cassettes, I shall order some of the Arista ones from freestyle. I am looking at ebay now for the older cassettes but they seem not readily available. I only have a dark bag right now and no dark room.

Donald Qualls · May 26, 2020

A nice trick for cleaning up the felts in a cassette -- fold a sticky note so the sticky is outside, and work the double-sticky edge into and along the felt/velvet light trap on the casasette. It'll collect any fuzz present, and leave no residue. That'll help make the "not usable" plastic cassettes much more usable.

tomkatf · May 26, 2020

For non OEM cassettes, we used Ilford cassettes for 20 years... all metal and sturdier than any others we looked at. Out of production, you may be able to find them on then usual suspect's sites...

Bormental · May 26, 2020

Donald Qualls said:
A nice trick for cleaning up the felts in a cassette -- fold a sticky note so the sticky is outside, and work the double-sticky edge into and along the felt/velvet light trap on the casasette. It'll collect any fuzz present, and leave no residue. That'll help make the "not usable" plastic cassettes much more usable.

Haha, that's actually how I concluded that Kalt cassettes currently sold by B&H and Adorama are not usable. I kept working them with a sticky note and their synthetic "felt" kept shedding its own pieces off, without signs for improvement. I'm pretty sure it would've been completely gone if I hadn't stopped. So to the trash they went. B&H didn't even want them back, but issued a refund.

Donald Qualls · May 26, 2020

Bormental said:
Haha, that's actually how I concluded that Kalt cassettes currently sold by B&H and Adorama are not usable. I kept working them with a sticky note and their synthetic "felt" kept shedding its own pieces off, without signs for improvement. I'm pretty sure it would've been completely gone if I hadn't stopped. So to the trash they went. B&H didn't even want them back, but issued a refund.

Hmm. Time to break out the 3D printer and make a trip to the craft store for a sheet of their thinnest black felt...

AgX · May 26, 2020

ColdEye said:
I only have a dark bag right now and no dark room.

Neither you need for bulk loading.
Only a room that you can get dark, for instance at night. Then one does not need to close the tiniest gaps at a window blind, if the room has such.

Bormental · May 26, 2020

AgX said:
Neither you need for bulk loading.
Only a room that you can get dark, for instance at night. Then one does not need to close the tiniest gaps at a window blind, if the room has such.

I honestly can't imagine how you do it, I mean hand-loading. Maybe I'm over-thinking it, I mean how do you hold the cassette, how do you provide a bit of tension so the film is not too loose, how the unrolling works without film raising from the 100ft roll and forming a spiral, how not to leave fingertips all over your film, etc etc etc.

Suddenly $30-50 loader makes a ton of sense. When my big roll arrives, I load 20-25 cassettes of exact lenghts (20, 25 and 35), and put them in the fridge. I did not time myself, but I can't imagine it taking longer than an hour, and I'm good for about 5-6 months.

ColdEye · May 26, 2020

Well that was quick, ended up getting a Watson 100 for $20. AgX, I have read some previous forum posts last night about how to load without a loader, but with where I am living right now it is very difficult to get everything light tight. This is also the reason why I had to give up printing BW prints.

AgX · May 26, 2020

Bormental said:
I honestly can't imagine how you do it, I mean hand-loading.

I did it without Youtube, without textbook, without telling me anybody anything, without even knowing of a loader.
I waited for dark, put the blind over the window and blanket against the slit under the door. To be on the safe side I even sat down on the ground behind an armchair.

I had with me a porcelain bowl, a pair of scissors, a piece of masking tape, the can with bulk film and a reloading-cassette with screw-top.

If I can do it, you can do it too.

AgX · May 26, 2020

The only thing a beginner handloading should be sure about is the orientation of the spool to the hull and the orientation of the film to the spool.
One could take a factory-loaded cassette along just to feel for the right way...

ic-racer · May 26, 2020

I got an Alden 200 loader in 1975 and to this day have never seen or used any loader as good. If there is a better one out there I'd like to know.

jp498 · May 26, 2020

I used to bulk load but don't shoot 35mm anymore. I taped the spool on with a minimal amount of film sticking out. Then wound the roll in the darkroom. No scratches if the gate is wide open.
The best 35mm cassettes were the metal ones with the zinc/golden metal end caps that snapped on.

mshchem · May 26, 2020

I still find new old stock Kodak Snap Caps in thrift stores. I got rid of all my bulk loaders a few years back. Then people would give them to me, I think I have 3 now. .

It used to be a great money saver, still is if you want short rolls. My friend had a Leica cassette winder that required total darkness. I've never used, but Kodak sold pre-cut strips that you could wind onto the special Leica and other key opened cassettes .

Agulliver · May 27, 2020

I have five bulk loaders.....all bought in the early part of the 21st century when people were dumping film gear for silly cheap prices.

2 of the Lloyds/Daylight type - the nearly square box with a felt light trap
1x Watson 100 which is a more modern version of the Watson "tear drop" type
1x Watson 66 which is an older Watson "tear drop"
1X Prinz 66 which is a cheaper store's own brand "tear drop"

I don't use the Prinz often. It wasn't manufactured as well as the Watsons. But it does work. The lid that goes on top needs holding firmly down while loading cassettes with film otherwise light gets in. With both the Watson 100 and Watson 66 the clips hold this lid in place adequately. The Watson type has no felt trap so nothing to scratch your film, but as others say you lose a couple of exposures either end of the film unless you do your work in the dark. These models audibly click for each frame and have a dial that indicates how many frames you have wound into the cassette which is a good feature.

The Lloyds type is easier/quicker to use and you lose less film at the beginning and end. The felt light traps in my two are perfectly fine but *in theory* old felt could go bad and scratch your film or you could get dust/dirt/grit in the felt which will scratch your film if you don't maintain it. This style of loader you count cranks of the handle, eg I think 31 cranks for 36 exposures, rather than the mechanism clicking and indicating this for you. It's a minor inconvenience as long as you're not interrupted! There basically is no mechanism so it's an all together simpler device.

Bottom line is both systems work, choose one that you think will work better for you or which is readily available at a price you like.

Regarding cassettes the new ones are not as good as the old ones (plastic). I mostly rely on 30 year old plastic cassettes which are great. Again the felt trap needs cleaning/blowing which I do just before I load the film. The modern cassettes, bought for me as a Christmas present in 2017, do work but the felt definitely is *not* as high quality. I have had issues with bits of felt coming off...luckily no scratches yet but I use these cassettes a lot less.

I haven't tried metal, they seem damned expensive when I have a plentiful supply of plastic but I can imagine the benefits and would consider this route if I were starting or if I needed to replace my plastic cassettes.

railwayman3 · May 27, 2020

I have a Konica Hi-Loader which I used a lot some years ago when duplicating slides onto Ektachrome Slide Duplicating Film, and had no difficulties or problems. There's a demo (not me) on:
I haven't used it for a while, as I am well stocked-up with factory B&W and colour films, and there doesn't seem to be a lot of price saving at the moment. However, I see that exactly the same loader seems to be currently available under the "AP" branding:- https://www.firstcall-photographic.co.uk/ap-bulk-35mm-film-loader/p857 (Just noticed that Firstcall also say they sell plastic....and coconut wood ........cassettes.

ic-racer · May 27, 2020

I think there was a post somewhere that the pre-loaded cassettes are more economical. I'm still looking for that link. I'd like to know where.

When I buy film at, for example, Freestyle. I see 100ft TMX for $113 and 36 exp TMX for $8.00 each.
Bulk = $113
Pre-load = 17 x $8 = $136

Maybe there is some coupon or something that I need to achieve the cost savings of pre-loads that I have been missing out since the 1970s.

Wallendo · May 27, 2020

I use both Watson and Lloyds reloaders, but prefer the Lloyds.

Although these are both daylight reloaders, they still need to be loaded in a dark bag or darkroom. Before loading your loader, take it apart and familiarize yourself with its layout to make sure you know how to load it before going dark.

One other point, do you have any dx-dependent cameras? (I have a few). These are cameras which read the film speed from the cannister and do not have any way of manually setting the film ISO. If this is the case, Ultrafine sells dx-coded cannisters for DX 100 and DX 400 which can come in handy. The other option is to reuse commercially loaded cassettes. Most of the cameras default to ISO 100. But I personally own 3 such cameras which default to other values.

What bulk loader and cassette?

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