what are these dark marks?

removedacct2 · Jul 29, 2021

a roll of 120, the last 2 frames: horizontal long dark marks
#8:
by the bell tower (on by the top on each side these short thick streaks???)

#7,
across the sky:

but rest of the roll is good, starting with previous frame
#6

typically the end of the roll is the one getting first into the spiral when I load it. I use steel spirals (Kindermann). Chemicals were fresh, and nothing noticeable just usual routine (20c water, soaking, standart agitation, this is Retropan-320 developped with Retrodev 4'30")

mshchem · Jul 29, 2021

Could you be bending the film a bit too much as you are trying to start the film on the reel?? Whatever it is it should appear as a light are on the negatives, otherwise I would look at the scanning. People here will ask for a cell phone picture.
If you use a florescent light source for scanning negatives this has happened to me. Someone here will know.

removedacct2 · Jul 29, 2021

yes I forgot to mention the digitalization/printing: it's an Epson V700 scanner. Of course on the negative it appears as lighter area, but I scratch my head about the cause:

mshchem · Jul 30, 2021

Yes, I agree that is a strange defect. It looks underdeveloped, how that could happen and form the lines is beyond me???

reddesert · Jul 30, 2021

The two short thick streaks in the corners of the last frame might be a mark from the film reel. Their location and symmetry makes me guess that. Is it possible that that was the end at the center of a steel reel, and the film contacted the ends of the spirals? (the inner ends of a steel reel spiral are usually bent down a little)

The larger, more indistinct marks, I don't know, possibly fingers touching the emulsion side of the film while loading?

removedacct2 · Jul 30, 2021

reddesert said:
The two short thick streaks in the corners of the last frame might be a mark from the film reel. Their location and symmetry makes me guess that. Is it possible that that was the end at the center of a steel reel, and the film contacted the ends of the spirals? (the inner ends of a steel reel spiral are usually bent down a little)

The larger, more indistinct marks, I don't know, possibly fingers touching the emulsion side of the film while loading?

yes that's exactly my hypothesis: the two symmetric black notches can only be these two small bents near the core of the spiral. I never had it before though... I guess exposed emulsion doesn't touch these bents unless there was some glitch with the alignment/start/spacing of the roll inside the film, so last frame ends too close to rolls end.

as for the other marks, yes I probably had a residue of something on the middle and index fingers tips. I wash hands before manipulating rolls but I must have been sloppy.

Kino · Jul 31, 2021

Are you loading your film emulsion in on the reel?

KenS · Jul 31, 2021

Possibly (or probably) the result of "kinking' the film when loading the 'fist' end of the film into the center of reel?

Ken

removedacct2 · Jul 31, 2021

Kino said:
Are you loading your film emulsion in on the reel?

yes load normally ie. emulsion side on the inside.

KenS said:
Possibly (or probably) the result of "kinking' the film when loading the 'fist' end of the film into the center of reel?

maybe, but I never had similar marks/stains even when I load some old films with a stubborn curl requiring a bit of persuasive kinking to get started.

that's why I go with the hypothesis of reddesert about something on finger tips and a sloppy handling when separating the film from the paper so I touched emulsion side). Still I can't recall details, and for sure I didn't load the film after having been eating oily french friends....

Kino · Jul 31, 2021

antonio_b said:
yes load normally ie. emulsion side on the inside.

maybe, but I never had similar marks/stains even when I load some old films with a stubborn curl requiring a bit of persuasive kinking to get started.

that's why I go with the hypothesis of reddesert about something on finger tips and a sloppy handling when separating the film from the paper so I touched emulsion side). Still I can't recall details, and for sure I didn't load the film after having been eating oily french friends....

Hmmm. I guess many do load it emulsion in, but I have always loaded my film emulsion out. If those spiral ends touch the film, it can't help but affect the processing, but I do understand that many do load their film emulsion in.

This should be good for starting a long, raging debate here on Photrio.

reddesert · Aug 1, 2021

I always load emulsion in. It tends to match the curve of the film so loading is easier and there's little chance for the film to buckle. Also it means if I do touch the film, it's likely on the base side. However, this is very much personal taste.

Typically, the way most steel reels are designed, the film doesn't touch those bent ends, because they are bent in toward the center as well as down.

However, if one starts the end of the film a little oddly, for example missing the clip and just stuffing the end into the center of the reel, it may be possible for the ends to touch the surface. I don't know if I've ever had those marks, but I've certainly done odd things like missing the clip. A few of my 35mm reels don't even have a clip, just a sort of C shape intended to contain the film end. I load film in a changing bag, so I have to get the film started without messing around for too long, before my hands start to get sweaty and annoying (and of course I would rather not touch the film with sweaty hands).

reddesert · Aug 1, 2021

Oh, also, when I get marks from kinking the film, they show up as little crescent marks, dark on the negative.

Of course my technique is impeccable so this only happens in in large clear areas of important negatives.

what are these dark marks?

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