What are good papers for lith printing?

brian steinberger · Jan 24, 2008

Besides the obvious Fotospeed paper, what current FB papers are the most lith printable? I know there are some papers that will lith print to an extent, but I'm wondering what you lith printers out there prefer. I'm going to start lith printing in the Fotospeed lith developer.

Another question: Does VC or graded paper matter in lith printing since the highlights are controlled by exposure and shadows by development?

Sanjay Sen · Jan 24, 2008

A good source of information would be, of course, Dr. Rudman's site, as well as the articles he wrote that can be found here (these are slightly older). I do not lith print yet, but will (hopefully) be starting soon. FWIW, I've decided to start with Kentmere's Kentona & Bromide papers in the LD20 developer. If you haven't read Dr. Rudman's books yet, I would highly recommend them. I have both and have read one already - very well written with lots of information and tips.

Good luck, and please post some results here.

Edit: A combination of the two websites I mentioned will give you an idea of what papers are "lithable", and which of these are still available.

Best wishes,
Sanjay

rst · Jan 24, 2008

For lith printing I prefer Fomatone MG from Foma. In Moersch SE5 Lith it can produce yellowish and reddish highlights and greenish shadows. But I would also recommend Tim Rudmans books. Both of them as the one of them is a good instruction manual and the other a good source of inspiration.

ciao
-- Ruediger

Bob Carnie · Jan 24, 2008

Brian

After fotospeed my favorite papers for Lith are... Oriental Graded 4, and possibly the most underated lith paper of all is Ilford Warmtone.. If you figure out how to make this one work you will be amazed with the potential of this paper.

Mark Fisher · Jan 24, 2008

My favorite is Kentmere VC Warmtone fiber in the semi-matte finish....sweet.

Scott-S · Jan 24, 2008

Hi Brian-
I've used Fomatone MG warmtone matt, Kentmere Kentona and Fotospeed Lith. I've also used Fotokemika but it seems to be a slower speed. All are excellent and give different results with different developers. I use Fotospeed developer and Maco Superlith developer. As far as your question I don't get that technical but I haven't noticed any difference in VC or Graded maybe some others have. I personally would go VC as it gives more flexibility. Some negatives I've found just need higher contrast filters (4 and 5) to print well. Stick with one paper and one developer to start. I think fotospeed developer and Fotospeed Lith paper work really well. Most of my Lith prints are this combination. My experience with Lith printing is just do it and don't get technical. In most cases F8 and 45 seconds will work. A lot of times I don't want to sit there for 10 minutes waiting so I usually give my negs heavy over exposure. In my experience wider aperatures give less contrast but more "Lithy" prints while smaller aperatures give more contrast but this isn't a rule as Lith is unpredictable but thats the beauty!
Good Luck
Scott

Rich Ullsmith · Jan 24, 2008

Freestyle also makes a point of noting which of the papers they sell are lithable. Tim Rudman's site mentioned above is authoratative on the subject.

ath · Jan 24, 2008

Mark Fisher said:
My favorite is Kentmere VC Warmtone fiber in the semi-matte finish....sweet.

Mark, is there a way to see some of your prints or do you know where I can see some samples of Kentmere VC warmtone lithed?

Nancy Gutrich · Jan 25, 2008

Can Moersch products be purchased in the States?
Nancy

Mike Té · Jan 25, 2008

Here are some different papers from today's session...

Yesterday and today I worked on lith-printing an image, using MacoLith for the first time. The development went so fast that I doubled the recommended dilution. Since the developer didn't seem to exhaust after 3 or 4 prints like my usual Kodak Super RT, I continued onwards once I ran out of Fomatone and decided to try several other papers. I managed to lith 20 papers in one developer prep; that's a record for me.

-print 1 is a straight print on Ilford RC pearl
-2 is Fomatone VC RC WT velvet at gr.4
-3 is Forte PWT RC semi-matte at gr.3
-4 is Ilford WT... which still sucks for lith in my house for some reason
-5 is Kentmere VC WT FB at gr.3, a moderate amt of pepper fog

For this image, I like the grain/texture and the colour brought out by the lith process, but I think I like the straight print for the contrast...

tim rudman · Jan 25, 2008

tmike said:
-4 is Ilford WT... which still sucks for lith in my house for some reason
...

MGWT does not lith like the more lithable papers do and the large/small grain effect is less pronounced, but you can lith process it and it has a look of its own - not as 'lithy' as others. I known that it is a favourite of Bob Carnie's.
Personally, I find it easier, or perhaps that should be 'more to my liking', to lith it in hot lith developer. I find it responds 'better'.

However, the TRUE strength of this paper with the lith process (in my opinion) is with what I call 'second pass lith', i.e. redevelopment in lith after bleaching a normally processed print. The results will vary with the ist pass developer used.
Try it - it splits like a charm ;-)
Tim

ath · Jan 25, 2008

Thanks, Mike - that was VERY helpful.

Scott-S · Jan 25, 2008

tmike said:
Yesterday and today I worked on lith-printing an image, using MacoLith for the first time. The development went so fast that I doubled the recommended dilution. Since the developer didn't seem to exhaust after 3 or 4 prints like my usual Kodak Super RT, I continued onwards once I ran out of Fomatone and decided to try several other papers. I managed to lith 20 papers in one developer prep; that's a record for me.QUOTE]

I really like the Kentmere print

Mike Té · Jan 25, 2008

Thanks, Tim. I WILL try out your techniques. In the past I've beat my head against the wall trying too make the Ilford work as straight-up lith. It's such a nice paper for me otherwise and it's so available. Your advice is just the ticket.

tim rudman said:
MGWT does not lith like the more lithable papers do and the large/small grain effect is less pronounced, but you can lith process it and it has a look of its own - not as 'lithy' as others. I known that it is a favourite of Bob Carnie's.
Personally, I find it easier, or perhaps that should be 'more to my liking', to lith it in hot lith developer. I find it responds 'better'.

However, the TRUE strength of this paper with the lith process (in my opinion) is with what I call 'second pass lith', i.e. redevelopment in lith after bleaching a normally processed print. The results will vary with the ist pass developer used.
Try it - it splits like a charm ;-)
Tim

Mike Té · Jan 25, 2008

anaanda said:
I really like the Kentmere print

Thanks, Scott.

The more I look at it, the more I like it. I posted it up literally 10 minutes post microwave and dry mount press so hadn't had a chance to appreciate it. It's up on the Fridge Door Gallery now, in good daylight.

It's a bit grittier than the others, I'd say a hint of yellow-gray in with the blacks. I'd not had good luck with the Kentmere in the Kodak SRT; brutal pepper fog. So, it's risen up in my appreciation scale...

Bob Carnie · Jan 25, 2008

Ilford Warmtone is tricky..
the secret or trick is to pull the print way before the black pull time of other papers. As the black emerges it starts to set, pull the sucker. Once you get the hang of it you will watch the print basically explode in the fix... the effect can be very appealing for images that require an ancient look... I made some images for the band Tradgically Hip , that I think are as beautiful with this paper as any I have ever made. As well a lot of fashion photographers like the IWT look as it gives a 30's 40's look to the image.
Lots of wasted paper with this one because you really can't see the results until the print has been flipped a couple of times .

tim rudman said:
MGWT does not lith like the more lithable papers do and the large/small grain effect is less pronounced, but you can lith process it and it has a look of its own - not as 'lithy' as others. I known that it is a favourite of Bob Carnie's.
Personally, I find it easier, or perhaps that should be 'more to my liking', to lith it in hot lith developer. I find it responds 'better'.

However, the TRUE strength of this paper with the lith process (in my opinion) is with what I call 'second pass lith', i.e. redevelopment in lith after bleaching a normally processed print. The results will vary with the ist pass developer used.
Try it - it splits like a charm ;-)
Tim

ath · Jan 25, 2008

Nancy Gutrich said:
Can Moersch products be purchased in the States?
Nancy

Nancy, I suggest to contact Wolfgang directly and ask him for a distributor in the US: wolfgang@moersch-photochemie.com. He is also a member here on apug.
If there is nobody in the US carrying Wolfgangs products, you could ask him or Mirko to ship it directly to you.

Thomas Bertilsson · Jan 25, 2008

I really appreciate you doing this paper comparison. It holds great value. I too like your Kentmere Warmtone image, and I have used it before in a print exchange. I got pepper fogging, but I don't dislike pepper fog, I love it with certain subject matter.

A paper you should try out some time is Fotokemika Emaks. I got a 16x20 from Guillaume Zuili that is outstanding in color and grain. A deep, rich chocolate black after selenium toning.

Your examples are really nice. I like all of them actually, but the Kentmere has something extra.

- Thomas

tmike said:
Yesterday and today I worked on lith-printing an image, using MacoLith for the first time. The development went so fast that I doubled the recommended dilution. Since the developer didn't seem to exhaust after 3 or 4 prints like my usual Kodak Super RT, I continued onwards once I ran out of Fomatone and decided to try several other papers. I managed to lith 20 papers in one developer prep; that's a record for me.

-print 1 is a straight print on Ilford RC pearl
-2 is Fomatone VC RC WT velvet at gr.4
-3 is Forte PWT RC semi-matte at gr.3
-4 is Ilford WT... which still sucks for lith in my house for some reason
-5 is Kentmere VC WT FB at gr.3, a moderate amt of pepper fog

For this image, I like the grain/texture and the colour brought out by the lith process, but I think I like the straight print for the contrast...

Gary Holliday · Jan 25, 2008

tmike said:
I managed to lith 20 papers in one developer prep; that's a record for me.

Thanks for the examples, I bought a box of Kentmere WT for this very purpose...great to see your results. Are you planning to post the other results? You rarely see print comparisons anywhere.

thomsonrc · Jan 25, 2008

Does anyone know if Kentona still lith prints now its had its cadmium removed, and how it compares with old kentona?

Mike Té · Jan 26, 2008

Hi, Gary.

Those are all the examples I have for now. I only tried 4 different types of paper, but my developer worked for 20 papers made up of those types. So, no other results for the moment. I'm taking notes from the info that's coming out in this thread about other papers!

Gary Holliday said:
Thanks for the examples, I bought a box of Kentmere WT for this very purpose...great to see your results. Are you planning to post the other results? You rarely see print comparisons anywhere.

lesd · Jan 26, 2008

I have tried Kentmere WT FB in Fotospeed lith at various exposures and developer concentrations but never got a decent print. In each case there was no infectious rush to development, just waiting for over an hour to get a milky pale print. Pity as I love this paper for normal printing.

Les

Nancy Gutrich · Jan 26, 2008

ath said:
Nancy, I suggest to contact Wolfgang directly and ask him for a distributor in the US: wolfgang@moersch-photochemie.com. He is also a member here on apug.
If there is nobody in the US carrying Wolfgangs products, you could ask him or Mirko to ship it directly to you.

Thanks for the reference, Andreas
Nancy

Mark Fisher · Jan 26, 2008

lesd said:
I have tried Kentmere WT FB in Fotospeed lith at various exposures and developer concentrations but never got a decent print. In each case there was no infectious rush to development, just waiting for over an hour to get a milky pale print. Pity as I love this paper for normal printing.

Les

Strange, it is my favorite paper (Kentmere Fineprint VC Warm semi-matte). It is a really fast paper too. I've only used it in Maco/Labor partner/Rollei (or whatever they are calling it now) at about 1:1:15. If you are using a glossy finish, I wonder if the finish has anything to do with it.

roy · Jan 30, 2008

I am going to try Maco Superlith and Foma in the next few days. It is a long time since my last printing which featured Novalith chemicals and Forte Polywarmtone paper. The colours produced with this combination were delicate and really appealing. I do not know what to expect so it could be interesting !

What are good papers for lith printing?

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