What am I doing wrong with my water wetter?

Huss · Oct 2, 2020

btaylor said:
Huss, I suspect we may be using the same water from the LA DWP. I use the same “a few drops of photoflo” but found using distilled water eliminated my drying streaks problem.

Yeah distilled water is the obvious, umm, solution...

Huss · Oct 2, 2020

Nige said:
I have always (40+ years) done it in the tank on the reels. Still using same tanks and reels and they are fine. I do rinse them afterwards.

My routine:
Wash film.
Empty tank.
Take reel on centre post out and shake as much water off as possible
Put back in tank
Add de-ionised water (what my local supermarket stocks)
Add couple of drops of Ilford Wetting agent
Swizzle around.
Wait till any bubbles have 'dissipated'
Empty tank
Take reel on centre post out and shake as much water off as possible (quite vigorously)
Separate reel halves (i.e. plastic)
Hang film up.
Rinse tank and reels in fresh water.
Wait....
Examine my spotless negs

I never thought about vigorously shaking the film while it is still on the reel. Good tip!!

GLS · Oct 2, 2020

You can still get residues left on the film when using detergent-based wetting agents (read: all commercial ones marketed for photographic use) even if you use them with distilled water, and even if you use only 1-2 drops for an entire tank.

I got fed up with this and long since switched to using a 5% solution of high purity isopropyl alcohol (IPA) in deionised water as a final rinse of the film. Since doing this my film always dries absolutely free of any residues. I have also discovered that using 5% IPA in the developer solution will completely prevent air bells; especially useful if doing semi-stand development.

pentaxuser · Oct 2, 2020

GLS said:
. I have also discovered that using 5% IPA in the developer solution will completely prevent air bells; especially useful if doing semi-stand development.

An interesting finding. How much do you add of this 5% IPA to a tank of say 250ml and do you find that the amount of IPA has to increase with bigger tanks such as is needed for 120?

Thanks

pentaxuser · Oct 2, 2020

Huss said:
Rich Tea biscuits! A drink is definitely too wet without one!

That's the one and it travelled a long way if it got to CA

pentaxuser

GLS · Oct 2, 2020

pentaxuser said:
An interesting finding. How much do you add of this 5% IPA to a tank of say 250ml and do you find that the amount of IPA has to increase with bigger tanks such as is needed for 120?

Thanks

Sorry, I wasn't completely clear there. I meant 5% of your total developer solution volume should be IPA, so 12.5 mL for 250 mL. This is only a guideline; it would probably also work with less (say 2%), but I know 5% does the job and does not appear to have any adverse affect on the B&W film stocks I have tried it with (and also does not affect stain formation with pyro).

I have never tried it with colour film developing, so if trying that treat this advice with caution as it's always possible some of the constituent chemicals in the film may be prematurely leached out by the IPA during development. Experimentation is key. Then again, colour film would not be developed using semi-stand techniques so there is less reason to use the IPA in the first place.

Another word of caution is that mixing small amounts of IPA with water can cause quite appreciable increases in temperature due to enthalpy of mixing. In my experience, mixing 5:95 IPA to water (at ~ 20 C) will cause approximately a 2 C temperature rise.

Sirius Glass · Oct 2, 2020

I too am in Los Angeles and I have never had a problem with PhotoFlo and tap water. I do not use a squeegee, but after I hang the negatives I use a paper towel to draw off excess water off by touching it to the lowest corner.

pentaxuser · Oct 2, 2020

BradS, wasn't it PE amongst others who advised against commercial detergents such as washing-up liquid as a cheap substitute specifically because in addition to the detergent base, commercial liquids may have other ingredients that are fine for dishes but not film. So I always understood that wetting agents were all from a detergent( washing up liquid) base

Can you say what you think PhotoFlo 200 is made up of?

Thanks

pentaxuser

GLS · Oct 2, 2020

pentaxuser said:
Can you say what you think PhotoFlo 200 is made up of?

I can tell you exactly. It contains water, propylene glycol and Triton X-100 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triton_X-100). The latter is a detergent.

pentaxuser · Oct 2, 2020

GLS said:
I can tell you exactly. It contains water, propylene glycol and Triton X-100 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triton_X-100). The latter is a detergent.

Thanks and it will be interesting to hear what BradS thinks it is made up of . An open exchange of information and reasons for a person's position or reasons for having doubts is the life of a forum

pentaxuser

Maris · Oct 2, 2020

I used to get the occasional drying mark but couldn't figure out why until I actually watched film dry after the wetting agent step. Watching film dry is, er, tedious but I noted that a drying mark formed everyplace a foam berg or liquid drop stopped moving down the film and dried where it stopped. So I changed my technique.

Now I hang up film as wet as possible, no squeegee, to speed up liquid flow and I hang that film edge-on at a 45 degree angle. The foam and liquid drops now only have to get across the film, not the length of the film, to be clear of the picture area. And if a drying mark should form it's on the edge of the film and not in the middle.

MattKing · Oct 2, 2020

GLS said:
I can tell you exactly. It contains water, propylene glycol and Triton X-100 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triton_X-100). The latter is a detergent.

More generically, Triton X-100 is a surfactant.
Surfactants are used to break surface tension and encourage liquids to flow off a surface.
Detergents are surfactants, but the word is used colloquially to include things like dish washing products that contain other, counter-productive things.

Nige · Oct 3, 2020

Huss said:
I never thought about vigorously shaking the film while it is still on the reel. Good tip!!

Thinking about it, it's more of a flick motion. Hold reel flat between thumb and fingers, move and stop abruptly.

GLS · Oct 3, 2020

MattKing said:
More generically, Triton X-100 is a surfactant.
Surfactants are used to break surface tension and encourage liquids to flow off a surface.
Detergents are surfactants, but the word is used colloquially to include things like dish washing products that contain other, counter-productive things.

Yes I understand the distinction. All detergent molecules are surfactants (by their nature), but not all surfactants are detergents. IPA is a surfactant of water, for example, which is why I use it as I do, but it is not a detergent. And yes I agree the other constituents of common household detergents (colourings, perfume etc) may have unforeseen effects on the film and should be avoided.

Sirius Glass · Oct 3, 2020

Maris said:
I used to get the occasional drying mark but couldn't figure out why until I actually watched film dry after the wetting agent step. Watching film dry is, er, tedious but I noted that a drying mark formed everyplace a foam berg or liquid drop stopped moving down the film and dried where it stopped. So I changed my technique.

Now I hang up film as wet as possible, no squeegee, to speed up liquid flow and I hang that film edge-on at a 45 degree angle. The foam and liquid drops now only have to get across the film, not the length of the film, to be clear of the picture area. And if a drying mark should form it's on the edge of the film and not in the middle.

Sage advice. Thank you.

Huss · Oct 4, 2020

Ok success!
I used the method of adding 5 drops directly into the open dev tank as the final rinse. Agitated it a little while. Took the reel out, flicked it so most of the fluid was expelled.
Then hung the film in the shower (as always) and gave it a one time gentle wipe down on the shiny side with a paper towel.
No scratches, zero drying marks. Finally!!!!

Thanks to all the recommendations.

Huss

BSP · Dec 8, 2020

Huss said:
I never thought about vigorously shaking the film while it is still on the reel. Good tip!!

+1

R.Gould · Dec 8, 2020

I always, for 60+ years, have used wetting agent with the film on the reel,My instructions also 1 in 200, 5ml per 1000 of water, I pourbthe washing water out and pour in the wetting agent mix, leave it for 1 minuite, pour it out, shake the film, and with 120 just hang it up to dry, with 35mm film, I find I need to wipe the water off from the shiny side of the film only, I use kitchen towl, i sheet folded and wipe the shiny side of the film only just once when it hanging then leave it to dry, on no account use so called film squege, or touch the emussiopn side, just the shiny side, and you should not get drying marks

What am I doing wrong with my water wetter?

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