What am I doing wrong with my water wetter?

Huss · Oct 1, 2020

I am using Arista Flow wetting agent and I cannot seem to get a roll of film that does not have drying marks.
I have tried the following:

1. A couple of drops into a pitcher, then poured into the dev tank for final rinse. Squeegee the film with my fingers.
2. As above, but do not use of fingers to get rid of excess water.
3. A couple of drops poured directly into open dev tank, then gently agitate film (on reel) in the solution. Squeegee with my fingers.
4. As above, but do not use of fingers to get rid of excess water.

Then air dry hanging. No matter what I do, drying streaks on the film. What am I doing wrong???

BradS · Oct 1, 2020

perhaps more than 'a couple of drops' are necessary ?
What do the mfgr's instructions say?

EDIT: I use Kodak PhotoFlo but I assume that these things are all kinda the same. What I have found is that the dilution needs to vary according to the local water source. Some experimentation may be necessary.

alter ego 6x9 · Oct 1, 2020

Are using distilled water for the final wash? Because if not...

BradS · Oct 1, 2020

I've never used distilled water for the final rinse...no issues. That's what PhotoFlo is for.

alter ego 6x9 · Oct 1, 2020

BradS said:
I've never used distilled water for the final rinse...no issues. That's what PhotoFlo is for.

Your water quality might be different. Most wetting agent instructions advise to use distilled or de-ionized water.
Wetting agents decreases water-surface tension, but it does not change the water quality.

BradS · Oct 1, 2020

I've lived in many different places, all manner of different water quality, the bay area and Minnesota were especially hard water, here in the Sierra, I have fantastic water...but anyway, like I say, PhotoFlo...no problem.

Paul Howell · Oct 1, 2020

Depending on how hard your water is, here in Phoenix area our water is really hard, I use a 2 bath system, both with distilled water. First bath is made of 1/4 oz Kodak wetting agent in a gallon of distilled water, 30 seconds continuous agitation, second bath 1/2 oz to gallon was distilled water, 15 seconds agitation, 15 seconds soak. I return the distilled water and wetting agent to the bottles, change out every 3 or 4 months. My guess is that really hard water the first bath dissolves any droplets on the film or the reel, the second bath then is able to "wet the film' for spot free drying. It took a few years using different approaches before using a 2 bath system.

Huss · Oct 1, 2020

Ok, thanks for the replies. I am not using distilled water. I will first try to increase the amount of wetter used (I always thought you were only meant to use a few drops), if that doesn't work then distilled water final rinse.

Thank you!

Zathras · Oct 1, 2020

I just looked up the Arista Flow page on Freestyle's web site and it says to dilute 1:200 with water. That would be 5ml Arista Flow per liter of working solution. That said, I always used Photo Flo at a 1:400 dilution because it would leave a scum on my film at 1:200. I'm guessing that Arista Flow is very similar to Photo Flo and should be used the same way.

jimjm · Oct 1, 2020

I've always mixed wetting agent with distilled water only, with no water spots. Tap water may be OK, depending on your local water quality, but distilled water may fix your issue.
I pre-mix wetting agent before dunking the film reel, then hang to dry without wiping or squeegee the film.

pentaxuser · Oct 1, 2020

Huss said:
Ok, thanks for the replies. I am not using distilled water. I will first try to increase the amount of wetter used (I always thought you were only meant to use a few drops), if that doesn't work then distilled water final rinse.

Thank you!

Generally speaking you are supposed to use only a few drops. Usually you can tell if there is enough wetting agent in the water by how many and what kind of bubbles form in the water when pouring it. If there are quite a lot and these remain on the surface without disappearing these bubbles are of the right nature, Effectively these are like soap suds and the surface tension means that the bubbles are maintained for longer than a few seconds. If you can pour the water and it behaves like tap water with no bubbles or the kind that disappear almost instantly after pouring the water then it isn't "sudsy " enough and you need to increase the drops of wetting agent. I use Ilford wetting agent and it specifies how many ccs of agent to a specified volume of water. My water is relatively hard in this part of the U.K. such that the kettle needs regular descaling but I have always found the Ilford specifications to be right even in a hard water area

pentaxuser

Wallendo · Oct 1, 2020

Having moved several times, each time I have moved I have had to adjust my routine. How much, if any, wetting agent needs to be added depends on water quality, drying temperature and humidity. No single wetting agent or concentration works for everybody in every situation. At higher temperatures in dry environments, the water may evaporate before it has time to run off. In that case you need to dilute the wetting agent. Rinsing in distilled water alone is sometimes all that is needed.

If you have drying marks after drying your film, sometimes running a damp cloth along the back of the film will be enough to remove the marks.

There are many threads like this on APUG, and no clear consensus about what to do.

BradS · Oct 1, 2020

Wallendo said:
Having moved several times, each time I have moved I have had to adjust my routine. How much, if any, wetting agent needs to be added depends on water quality, drying temperature and humidity. No single wetting agent or concentration works for everybody in every situation. At higher temperatures in dry environments, the water may evaporate before it has time to run off. In that case you need to dilute the wetting agent. Rinsing in distilled water alone is sometimes all that is needed.

If you have drying marks after drying your film, sometimes running a damp cloth along the back of the film will be enough to remove the marks.

There are many threads like this on APUG, and no clear consensus about what to do.

This answer is the most sensible I've ever read on this topic.

Saganich · Oct 1, 2020

Photoflow application to film while on reels and in the development tank never worked for me. So I eliminated photoflo and started a DI water spritz (running a bead over both sides) from a wash bottle while the film was hanging. This worked fine. One day I ran out of DI water and I couldn't get any so I mixed 1:200 photoflo in another wash bottle and ran a bead over both sides of film while hanging. This also worked well. It is my opinion that photoflo residue builds-up on tank and reel surfaces over time despite cleaning adding to the problem.

MattKing · Oct 1, 2020

Mix it to the correct dilution. If you end up with either too much sudsing, or very little, adjust.
I never use distilled water, but our tap water is quite soft.
I se a more elaborate procedure - you can see it here: https://www.photrio.com/forum/resources/making-and-using-a-kodak-photo-flo-stock-solution.396/
If you don't want to use my approach, just approach it carefully with different dilutions.
And don't use surfactant in the developing tank, or with the film on the reels. The combination of gelatin and surfactant can leave residues.

Sirius Glass · Oct 1, 2020

Start by following the instructions exactly, then only if necessary deviate from that.

pentaxuser · Oct 1, 2020

Good advice here Huss so the question is: do you use wetting agent while the film remains of the reel? I ask this as a means of eliminating that as a cause.

Thanks

pentaxuser

awty · Oct 1, 2020

I just use a squirty bottle 9/10 ths filled with demineralised water add a few drops of photo flo and top up with isopropyl alcohol. Squirt it while hanging over the bathtub shake the excess off and alow to dry. If im still getting water spots I add more isopropyl alcohol.
Thats the only method that works for me.

Patrick Robert James · Oct 1, 2020

I stopped using PhotoFlo years ago. I just hang the film to dry and take a KimWipe or paper towel (Bounty works well) and gently wipe the shiny side of the film until it is clear. I just run the edge along the film holding the paper one hand on each side. You don't need to do anything on the emulsion side. Be gentle of course. You don't need to press. The water will prefer the paper. I never get any scratches and the film always comes out clean since there is nothing left to create a problem. I don't rinse in distilled water either.

Some 120 flms have emulsion on the base side to prevent curling. You don't need to wipe those.

Hope that helps you.

Huss · Oct 1, 2020

pentaxuser said:
Good advice here Huss so the question is: do you use wetting agent while the film remains of the reel? I ask this as a means of eliminating that as a cause.

Thanks

pentaxuser

Yes, up till now on the reel.

This thread has been very illuminating, I did not expect so many responses to what I thought was perhaps an embarrassingly simple question!

MattKing · Oct 1, 2020

Good luck with solving the issue.
And by the way, "water wetter" makes me chuckle!

Nige · Oct 1, 2020

I have always (40+ years) done it in the tank on the reels. Still using same tanks and reels and they are fine. I do rinse them afterwards.

My routine:
Wash film.
Empty tank.
Take reel on centre post out and shake as much water off as possible
Put back in tank
Add de-ionised water (what my local supermarket stocks)
Add couple of drops of Ilford Wetting agent
Swizzle around.
Wait till any bubbles have 'dissipated'
Empty tank
Take reel on centre post out and shake as much water off as possible (quite vigorously)
Separate reel halves (i.e. plastic)
Hang film up.
Rinse tank and reels in fresh water.
Wait....
Examine my spotless negs

btaylor · Oct 2, 2020

Huss, I suspect we may be using the same water from the LA DWP. I use the same “a few drops of photoflo” but found using distilled water eliminated my drying streaks problem.

pentaxuser · Oct 2, 2020

MattKing said:
Good luck with solving the issue.
And by the way, "water wetter" makes me chuckle!

Reminds me of an advert on commercial TV here that was about a particular biscuit and it was that tea was too wet without one

In a strange way in relation to this very subject of the thread, it is not nonsensical to say that soft water is wetter than hard water

pentaxuser

Huss · Oct 2, 2020

pentaxuser said:
Reminds me of an advert on commercial TV here that was about a particular biscuit and it was that tea was too wet without one

In a strange way in relation to this very subject of the thread, it is not nonsensical to say that soft water is wetter than hard water

pentaxuser

Rich Tea biscuits! A drink is definitely too wet without one!

What am I doing wrong with my water wetter?

Huss

BradS

alter ego 6x9

BradS

alter ego 6x9

BradS

Paul Howell

Huss

Zathras

jimjm

pentaxuser

Wallendo

BradS

Saganich

MattKing

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Sirius Glass

pentaxuser

awty

Patrick Robert James

Huss

MattKing

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btaylor

pentaxuser

Huss

What am I doing wrong with my water wetter?

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