What am I doing wrong here? Mangled negs

Hi all

I've been doing my own b&w processing for about 12 months and I'm very happy with the results I get. Not happy with using plastic reels (tank is bulky, hard to load if not bone dry, etc) so I've started using the stainless reels and small tank that I acquired from a friend. My problem is, even though I take the utmost care loading the reels, I haven't managed to produce a single successful roll so far. The edges of the film are in places damaged, and obviously it's not all sitting on the reel properly because in places there is contact between pieces of film and I lose 3 or 4 frames per roll with big undeveloped splotches. I guess it's jumping the track in a couple of places. This happens consistently on every single roll and I'm a bit annoyed about it. Any idea what I am doing wrong when loading???

When I load the film, this is my method: Before putting everything in the changing bag, I chop the leader off, and attach the start of the film onto the spring loaded centre section and centre it.. I carefully start the film off and make sure it is sitting nicely on the start of the track. I then pop everything in the bag and start feeding the film on. While I spin the reel in my left hand I squeeze the film with my right hand so it bows and feeds on. I try to feel with my left index finger if it's going on okay, but even though it seems okay I still get mangled negs. Am I bowing the film too much or something?? Any ideas?

Thanks all..

Chris

Is it a new steel reel? If it is one that has been dropped and slightly bent, forget it, you will never get a roll on it. Otherwise it just takes practice.. and eventually becomes very easy to do.

Also during the rolling on the reel, if the film is on right, it should have the ability to be pushed and pulled a little.. maybe a half inch. So you can check the roll as you are rolling to see if it is still free of bends and kinks.

Metal tanks and reels are difficult. I have mangled many a roll using them. If I were you, I'd consider if the reason I am using metal tanks over plastic ones is worth the difficult effort.

Right, thanks all.. I might grab one of my junk rolls and try loading it in daylight - I suspect it's my technique, because the thing I didn't mention was that I have 2 reels and I have exactly the same trouble with both of them.

I am by no means an expert, but this is what I have found.

After you have put your film on the stainless reel, run your fingers very lightly over the surface. There should be no "humps" or uneven surface. From experience, this is caused by film jumping the slots, and will result in severe problems on some shots.

What I do now, is check every 3 revolutions or so for this humping. When I detect it, I unspool some film and try again.

I don't know the brand of reels you are using, but the recognized leader I think is Hewes. I have those in 35mm and 120, and I believe the build quality makes for a better experience.

I find I cuss a lot less using a darkroom than a changing bag of course that might not be an option for you. Also, my hands start to sweat in the bag.

I have never used plastic, so I can not comment on them.

Good luck
Steve.

Good Afternoon, Chris,

Are the contact places the same with all rolls? If so, that would reinforce the comment above which suggests a slightly damaged reel. If not, it must be in the loading technique. What you describe is a bit perplexing. Normally, any film that is slightly askew and not feeding correctly makes itself evident by feel; it is extremely obvious when that happens, and the only thing to do is go back and start over. Quality films such as Ilford and Kodak almost never cause loading problems, but that may not be true of others which may have more curl or be on a thinner base.

A Hewes reel is virtually impossible to load incorrectly, and a Kinderman reel with a puncturing center spike is very close behind. Try one of those before giving up on SS. In the long run, you'll never regret sticking with SS instead of plastic, and that's even truer with roll film than with 35mm.

Konical

If the film went in correctly (see the previous two posts), you do not have any problems with loading. Most SS reels are just about full when loaded with a 36 exposure roll of 35mm film. You won't have any excess spilling out the end. If you do, the film probably jumped the track someplace during loading. If you have a lot of space left, it probably jumped the track the other way and you have the film touching itself somewhere, which results in undeveloped spots. I've found that the edges often suffer some damage if I remove the film from the reel carelessly. Be sure everything is straight, and be gentle when removing the film.

Thanks for all your suggestions!!! I will carefully check my reels, but they certainly look fine! The film seems to wind on perfectly well, and there doesn't seem to be much left over. I might look at getting some of those Hewes reels if my issues persist, but I have no intention of giving up on SS!!! I am keen for one of those 4 reel tanks, now I'm bulk loading.

P.S. the film I usually use is either HP5 or Neopan SS.

Find the video on youTube of JBrunner showing how to load the reel - it helped me a lot. Also, I highly recommend the Hewes reels. I practiced a bunch of times in the light and then with my eyes closed and it's now very easy.
I have used non-Hewes ones and had the same problems you mention.

No, I haven't seen that video. Apologies to JBrunner - I didn't realise he had a video of that up there. Will have a look when I finish work tonight...

Kinderman makes a loader for their reels that is virtually foolproof. I have one at the school darkroom for students that have physical disabilities and I have never seen a misload from them or anyone else using the dedicated loader.

But, another thing you can do when using stainless reels is not use the clip/spring/spike in the center to secure the film. If you insert the film into the center of the reel just under the securing device and then use use your thumb and a finger on opposite sides of the reel to hold it there momentarily, you will find the film can be wound on the spiral easily. The first quarter-turn to place the film in the spiral channel is critical. If that is done correctly, the reel should almost self load by rotating the reel with the left hand while making a slight arch in the film with the other hand as it feeds into the reel.

If you don't use the attaching clip and the film is going on correctly, you'll find that you can slide the film back and forth several inches in the channel quite easily. If it binds, it means it is not loaded into the channel correctly somewhere. If that is the case, unwind it to the point where it again slides smoothly in the channel and then continue loading it.

Personally, I would either get the Kinderman stainless system or else use plastic for 35mm films. 120 films go on the steel reels much more easily than 35mm IME, but 120 is much more difficult with plastic reels.

The beauty, to me at least, of the steel reels is that if the film loads on correctly, you'll know it right away. If it goes off track, go back a few turns then try again. I'd sooner take this over quick loading a plastic reel and having the film crunch up in a jam.

But yes, get used to it in daylight, then eyes closed and you'll be right in no time flat and if you can afford Hewes reels, invest in them. The sprocket catches pretty much ensure the film starts off correctly 99.999% of the time

I think SS has too many advantages over plastic to give up on it. I always have the plastic one to fall back on, I used it last month in fact, because I was doing a job that I really didn't want to risk losing any shots by mangling my negs.

I'll try without the clip and see how I get on, thanks for the tip!! Oh and I did practise in daylight but it sounds like I need to do more practise.. Or buy some of those fancy reels

Chris Nielsen said:

No, I haven't seen that video. Apologies to JBrunner - I didn't realise he had a video of that up there. Will have a look when I finish work tonight...

Click to expand...

Have a look here

First, roll in a full dark closet. When you hear everything it's much easier. Keep the allignment straight and loose, don't pull too much. clip the front in, making sure it's relatively centered and begin turning the reel. Rest your two fingers on the sides of the reel to ensure good alignment.

smieglitz said:

Kinderman makes a loader for their reels that is virtually foolproof. I have one at the school darkroom for students that have physical disabilities and I have never seen a misload from them or anyone else using the dedicated loader.

Click to expand...

I agree 100%, I used that loader for years myself, but when I started re-building my darkroom earlier this year, I couldn't find the reels or the loader. I'd maim to find both. Are they still sold?

Chris Nielsen said:

I think SS has too many advantages over plastic to give up on it. I always have the plastic one to fall back on, I used it last month in fact, because I was doing a job that I really didn't want to risk losing any shots by mangling my negs.

I'll try without the clip and see how I get on, thanks for the tip!! Oh and I did practise in daylight but it sounds like I need to do more practise.. Or buy some of those fancy reels

Click to expand...

I have always used the plastic reels, don't see a real advantage to SS except maybe not needing the reel 100% dry to load it, the solution of course is to have extra reels. Wish I could find a couple of spares for the GAF tank I have, don't think the tank has been made in many years though....

white.elephant said:

I agree 100%, I used that loader for years myself, but when I started re-building my darkroom earlier this year, I couldn't find the reels or the loader. I'd maim to find both. Are they still sold?

Click to expand...

Here ya go:

Kinderman 35mm loader

The best solution is to practice while watching TV. It might take some doing but it's a learned process. I have used the Patterson and stainless steel products for years, sometimes both during a developing session because of volume. The film has to be centered under the spring clip on a SS reel in order for it to load straight. If you attach it and after a turn it feels like it's going off or pulling to one side then it wasn't centered properly. Practice in the light without looking, you'll get it in no time.

Curt said:

The best solution is to practice while watching TV. It might take some doing but it's a learned process. I have used the Patterson and stainless steel products for years, sometimes both during a developing session because of volume. The film has to be centered under the spring clip on a SS reel in order for it to load straight. If you attach it and after a turn it feels like it's going off or pulling to one side then it wasn't centered properly. Practice in the light without looking, you'll get it in no time.

Click to expand...

I agree with Curt - this is the perfect TV practice item. Having mangled my first few rolls, years back, I spent an evening watching a good movie while practicing. I managed to see the movie and work out my technique.

There is another cure - Sheet Film!

Bruce

Guys and girls, thank you for all the many helpful responses! I'm hoping that the next few days off work will be good to get out and shoot a heap of film and so I'll be able to practise all your helpful suggestions!

Thanks...

Good luck Chris, have fun.

Morning.

This loading problem i think we have all had at some time. I still use the plastic reels, this thing about trouble with loading can be over come by using a soft carbon pencil and run the pencil around the lane, of the plastic reel, take them apart it makes it much easy to run the pencil around. Try to keep a couple of reels. They are cheap enough to buy.
But the advice about practice is fore front on this. Still give the plastic one's ago with the pencil.

Graham

Are you taking the spool our of the cassette? It sounded like you are just pulling the film out of the cassette. The causes excess tension and can make the film 'jump' the grooves. I take the cassette apart (in the darkroom or changing bag, of course!), so the film will pull easily. After that, all the above advice is excellent. I have more difficulity with the clips, as if you don't get the film centered precisely, you will never get it to spool on right. Letting the end float works better for me. I've been using metal reels for more that 55 years, and I still occasionally mess up. Hate it when that happens!

I use steel reels for 35mm, and either aprons or plastic reels for 120.

I would rather use steel for everything, but I just don't have the dexterity in my right hand (I'm left handed) to make them work - in particular I cannot use the clip. If I could find a steel reel that has a clip that you could activate with the same hand you feed the film in with, I might be able to use steel reels for 120 too.

My 35mm reels don't even have clips - the film base is relatively "stiffer", so it can just be inserted into the centre of the reel, and will crimp appropriately.

I point this out, because I think it is important to understand that the two film sizes are sufficiently different enough that experience with one doesn't necessarily transfer automatically to the other.

By the way, the other big advantages of steel reels are that the tanks use less chemistry, it is easier to get multi reel tanks, and if you use tempering baths, the steel tanks are more effective.

I agree with the suggestions above - practice, and try to adapt a cupboard for loading, because the sound of film being loaded correctly is distinctive.

It is pretty easy to make most windowless rooms quite dark. Remember, it is easy to load at night, and then develop the next day.

Hope this helps.

Matt