Wetting agents and stabilizers

pkr1979 · Feb 5, 2023

Hi all,

I have to admit that Ive been under the impression that these where pretty much the same thing... Mainly because I use stab at the end of the E6 process and a wetting agent at the end of black and white reversal process (and regular black and white) I just assumed they served the same process.

However, browsing these products it seems to me I shouldnt assume (which I do too much anyway). So, when are you guys applying one or the other (or both) when developing film or paper?

Cheers
Peter

halfaman · Feb 5, 2023

Current E6 stabilizer is a wetting agent plus a biocide to protect dyes from "hungry bugs". B/W film does not need any biocide, fine grain metallic silver is a biocide by itself, but makes no harm.

You can use E6 stabilizer with BW.

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I have gotten quite a few queries regarding color stabilizers and have therefore undertaken a project investigating them and trying to clarify them in one post. Here goes..... Cyan and Magenta couplers react with their respective dyes causing brown stains and loss of dye. This makes a print...

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koraks · Feb 5, 2023

halfaman said:
Current E6 stabilizer is a wetting agent plus a biocide to protect dyes from "hungry bugs".

Isn't it also a proper stabilizer? E6 being a CD-3 based process requires a stabilizer for decent longevity of the dyes.

pkr1979 said:
So, when are you guys applying one or the other (or both) when developing film or paper?

Paper: none. Just wash. Both color & B&W. On color paper a stabilizer might make sense.

Film:
B&W: wetting agent only.
Color: sometimes a wetting agent and a drop of formalin; the latter acts as both a biocide and a dye stabilizer. The latter isn't necessary for modern C41 films (made after 2000 or so). E6 films do benefit from a stabilizer. There are stabilizer/final bath formulas that create formalin in situ during the film treatment procedure.

halfaman · Feb 5, 2023

koraks said:
Isn't it also a proper stabilizer? E6 being a CD-3 based process requires a stabilizer for decent longevity of the dyes.

Formaldehyde is released during bleach working together with prebleach bath. Current E6 stabilizer is just a final rinse like C41.

koraks · Feb 5, 2023

Right, thanks, now I recall having read about that, indeed!

JPD · Feb 5, 2023

I have used Agfa Sistan for untoned black and white prints, and Adox makes Adostab II as a modern replacement for Sistan.

RalphLambrecht · Feb 5, 2023

pkr1979 said:
Hi all,

I have to admit that Ive been under the impression that these where pretty much the same thing... Mainly because I use stab at the end of the E6 process and a wetting agent at the end of black and white reversal process (and regular black and white) I just assumed they served the same process.

However, browsing these products it seems to me I shouldnt assume (which I do too much anyway). So, when are you guys applying one or the other (or both) when developing film or paper?

Cheers
Peter

they are indeed quite different.I use wetting agent for film and stabilizer for RC paper

pkr1979 · Feb 5, 2023

Thanks all,

@koraks do you know why E6 films in particular do benefit?

@JPD with what kind of paper did you use Sistan?

I assume using a toner would replace wetting agent/stab?

@RalphLambrecht how come you use stab for just RC paper?

Cheers
Peter

JPD · Feb 5, 2023

pkr1979 said:
@JPD with what kind of paper did you use Sistan?

I assume using a toner would replace wetting agent/stab?

I used it mostly with old Emaks Varycon (fiber) that didn't change colour in Selenium toner, and also with RC paper.

For RC paper I don't trust the "just wash for five minutes after fixing" recommendation. Too many RC prints got yellow spots within a couple of years after using that method, so now I either tone or use stab.

pkr1979 · Feb 5, 2023

JPD said:
I used it mostly with old Emaks Varycon (fiber) that didn't change colour in Selenium toner, and also with RC paper.

For RC paper I don't trust the "just wash for five minutes after fixing" recommendation. Too many RC prints got yellow spots within a couple of years after using that method, so now I either tone or use stab.

Thanks. Do you ommit the wetting agent when toning or using stab?

ags2mikon · Feb 5, 2023

What did they change in C-41 films to be able to omit a stabilizer?

koraks · Feb 5, 2023

ags2mikon said:
What did they change in C-41 films to be able to omit a stabilizer?

Re-engineered the dyes, apparently.

pkr1979 said:
@koraks do you know why E6 films in particular do benefit?

It's explained in that thread @halfaman linked to. Look for the posts by @Photo Engineer. E6 dyes were apparently never reformulated to give good longevity without a formalin treatment. I don't know the specifics other than that.

pkr1979 · Feb 5, 2023

koraks said:
It's explained in that thread @halfaman linked to. Look for the posts by @Photo Engineer. E6 dyes were apparently never reformulated to give good longevity without a formalin treatment. I don't know the specifics other than that.

Thanks koraks

JPD · Feb 5, 2023

pkr1979 said:
Thanks. Do you ommit the wetting agent when toning or using stab?

Sistan/Adostab contains a wetting agent already, to avoid drying marks on glossy paper or film, since they are dried after the stabilizer bath.

I only use a wetting agent in a final water bath after rinsing film, but have never needed it for paper. But it depends on the water quality, so some use a wetting agent for RC paper after the rinse, to avoid drying marks.

pkr1979 · Feb 5, 2023

Thanks fellas - much appreciated

relistan · Feb 5, 2023

Everything you need to know is here https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/the-definitive-word-i-hope-on-color-stabilzers.89149/

ags2mikon · Feb 5, 2023

I'll leave a note to my children and grand children about the re-engineered dyes. They will have to be the judge on that one.

cmacd123 · Feb 5, 2023

our late member "PE" recived a patent on the E6 process managing to include the formalin on the film without having to have any in the chemicals themselves If I remember correctly. it is complicated enough that unless you are a chemist, you probably should use whatever the rest of the process calls for.

Wetting agents and stabilizers

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