Wetting Agent vs Plastics

mshchem · Dec 3, 2019

MattKing said:
Surfactant + gelatin + room temperature rinse sometimes = small amounts of "gunk" in the nooks and crannies in and on a developing reel.
Doesn't damage the reel, but doesn't do the film or the loading process any good.

This is a really good point about temperature. When I was younger, I decided to coat my own paper. I made a lovely Bromide emulsion, dissolved gelatin in hot water, added silver nitrate and potassium bromide. I cured it overnight it a convection oven, the chilled it. The result white Jello. All done in safelight illumination. I came to the wash step. I couldn't quite believe it would work, but it did. I minced up the cold white emulsion, then washed it in a contraption that used a large Paterson tank and cotton flannel, I washed that gelatin for an hour in cold tap water. It didn't dissolve one little bit.
Moral of the story if you want to get the gunk out, use really hot water. All my reels, last step, go into a bucket of 45°C or hotter water.

Ian Grant · Dec 3, 2019

dkonigs said:
I don't currently have a hot water supply in my darkroom, unless I've explicitly heated that water with the Jobo or a Sous Vide (i.e. CineStill TCS-1000) stick. So immediate washing with steaming hot water (or whatever everyone claims to do) isn't all that practical for me.

I've also seen just as many people swear that wetting agent gunk is a problem as I've seen people swear that it isn't a problem, regardless of how many centuries of photo processing experience they claim to have.

I've also often wondered if different film/reel combinations stick more/less than others. Since no one actually talks about which film they're using in these discussions, that may very well be another major variable not being accounted for. (though its probably a topic for another thread, and one I've tried to have elsewhere in the past)

Finally, there are really 2-3 different chemical cocktails included under the "wetting agent" banner here. There's Photo-Flo/Ilfotol, Stabilizer (or whatever the non-Kodak C-41 kits call "stabilizer" these days), and Kodak's C-41 Final Rinse. Its entirely possible that each of these have different effects on the reels.

No-one's saying the wetting angent and gelatin build up isn't a problem, the way to avoid it is decent washing of the tanks and particularly the spirals. The only hot water I have in my own darkroom is if I boil a kettle. I don't wash my spirals in hot water after every film development session instead I give them a good clean every few months and I may soak them in bleach, (Sodium Hypochlorite).

Some films have softer emulsions than others, Acros,, Fomapan and the old EFKE (Adox) films in particular, so are more likely to leave traces of gelatin from the super-coating , and older reels may not be as smooth.

It's worth pointing out the amount of residue that builds up in the bottom of a tank or bottle when using replenished developer, most of this comes off the film during development, in practice we can decant the developer off this residue or filter to remove it.

Ian

John51 · Dec 3, 2019

Once my film is in the tank, I process it in the kitchen. Seems the best place to do it.

If the problem of residue can be fixed by a hot water wash, that can be done later. We only need as many reels as we are likely to use in one developing session. When the final film is hanging up to dry, all the reels can be washed in hot water and will be dry and clean for the next session.

StepheKoontz · Dec 3, 2019

+1 on the hot water rinse. I think most people have hot water somewhere they have access too. If you don't have it in the darkroom, it's not like the reels or tanks are light sensitive and have to be kept in the dark Just give them a hot water rinse after each use before you put them out to dry.

Kino · Dec 3, 2019

dkonigs said:
I've also seen just as many people swear that wetting agent gunk is a problem as I've seen people swear that it isn't a problem, regardless of how many centuries of photo processing experience they claim to have.

Why do you come on and ask for everyone's experience with this problem and then chastise them for giving you their experience, which is only meaningful based upon how long they have been doing this process and their personal outcomes?

Good luck on your quest to gain information detached from experience and independent of any sort of time-frame...

Ian Grant · Dec 3, 2019

StepheKoontz said:
+1 on the hot water rinse. I think most people have hot water somewhere they have access too. If you don't have it in the darkroom, it's not like the reels or tanks are light sensitive and have to be kept in the dark Just give them a hot water rinse after each use before you put them out to dry.

Not everyone's darkroom is that close to their home, mine's at the end of the garden. 50+ years of darkroom work using Paterson tanks and I know I only need to wash tehm with hot water a few times a year and that's was with quite heavy use..

Ian

StepheKoontz · Dec 3, 2019

Ian Grant said:
Not everyone's darkroom is that close to their home, mine's at the end of the garden.

So you never walk back to your home? It seems odd to me people seem afraid to take the reels out of their darkroom or set them out to dry somewhere else...

Ian Grant · Dec 3, 2019

StepheKoontz said:
So you never walk back to your home? It seems odd to me people seem afraid to take the reels out of their darkroom or set them out to dry somewhere else...

I have running (cold) water in my darkroom so why take spirals needlessly into the house ? In a previous hous I'd process B&W, E6 and C41 in my kitchen so it's not something I'm adverse to.

I've never had a darkroom with running hot water and that's never caused an issue, When I had commercial premises we had 3 darkrooms and never had problem with plastic spirals.

Essentially what I'm asying is a cold water wash is fine for spirals as long as you give them a good clean in hot water every so often. I'd boil a kettle in the darkroom to do that. I have a lot of tanks and spirals and a large darkroom 12"x13" so giving reels a good clean every few month is easy

Ian

AgX · Dec 3, 2019

dkonigs said:
Finally, there are really 2-3 different chemical cocktails included under the "wetting agent" banner here. There's Photo-Flo/Ilfotol, Stabilizer (or whatever the non-Kodak C-41 kits call "stabilizer" these days), and Kodak's C-41 Final Rinse. Its entirely possible that each of these have different effects on the reels.

There are more: Adoflo II, Compard WAC, Loboflo and maybe Stab 1.

mshchem · Dec 3, 2019

I noticed a reference to sodium hypochlorite, chlorine laundry bleach. I'm sure most people know, but it's worth repeating. Never use chlorine bleach around stainless steel of any kind. Same is true with hydrochloric acid, disturbs the chromium oxide passivation surface that makes stainless so useful. Nitric or citric acid restores the passivation of stainless. Never use steel wool or chlorinated cleaners on stainless steel.
Obviously dilute chlorine bleach won't harm plastic, but Paterson has the little steel balls to think of.
Now I return to the regular surfactant thread.

warden · Dec 3, 2019

mshchem said:
I noticed a reference to sodium hypochlorite, chlorine laundry bleach. I'm sure most people know, but it's worth repeating. Never use chlorine bleach around stainless steel of any kind. Same is true with hydrochloric acid, disturbs the chromium oxide passivation surface that makes stainless so useful. Nitric or citric acid restores the passivation of stainless. Never use steel wool or chlorinated cleaners on stainless steel.
Obviously dilute chlorine bleach won't harm plastic, but Paterson has the little steel balls to think of.
Now I return to the regular surfactant thread.

You said "I'm sure most people know", but I'm not ashamed to hold my hand up that I didn't know any of that. As a non-chemist I have no idea what makes stainless steel "stainless". Thought it was magic.

This thread makes me want to give my plastic reels a good soak in hot water.

AgX · Dec 3, 2019

mshchem said:
Never use chlorine bleach around stainless steel of any kind. Same is true with hydrochloric acid, disturbs the chromium oxide passivation surface that makes stainless so useful. Never use steel wool or chlorinated cleaners on stainless steel.

I never experienced any ill effect from household hypochlorite bleach on low grade stainless steel. However hydrochloric acid somewhat matted a glossy surface, but did not affect the rust-proofness.

Really worse though was effect of hydrochloric acid on chromiun coatings.

But as there is a variety of stainless steel compounds and a variety of chemicals concentrations this should be taken with a grain of salt.

mshchem · Dec 3, 2019

I was intimately involved in the design and production of stainless steel home appliances. Trust me that even 316 grade stainless steel is effected by chlorine bleach. Back in the days when Kodak, Nikor, Pako, etc. sold stainless steel equipment there was clear instructions. Use pure feldspar cleaners with soap, in the USA Bon-Ami cleanser not a French phrase, in the US pronounced Bonn aammi. Then passivation with dilute nitric acid.
Here's a link to pitting corrosion, intergranular corrosion.

https://www.materials.sandvik/en/materials-center/corrosion/wet-corrosion/pitting/

http://www.ssina.com/corrosion/igc.html

CMoore · Dec 3, 2019

mshchem said:
I was intimately involved in the design and production of stainless steel home appliances.

What was the main intent of SS in home appliances.?
Was it simply to avoid destruction from rust during "Normal Use".?
Thank You

mshchem · Dec 3, 2019

CMoore said:
What was the main intent of SS in home appliances.?
Was it simply to avoid destruction from rust during "Normal Use".?
Thank You

Purely marketing driven. SS for industrial kitchen sinks and counters, welded, without seems, NSF approved, that makes sense.

SS appliances today are show pieces. The best finish for refrigerators is electro galvanized steel that come pre-finished (roll coated pre painted steel) best doors are welded then powder coated.
Ranges with vitreous enamel inside and out
Enough this is off topic.

Bottom line if you have rusty Nikor tanks clean them up with Scotch Brite, then dip them for a bit in warm citric acid solution. Citric or Nitric acid restores the protective Chromium oxide protective film. That's why there's 18% Chromium in 316 SS.

pbromaghin · Dec 4, 2019

Wetting agent gunk? I started avoiding it completely a couple years ago by putting a few drops in a water-filled margarine tub and see-sawing the film through it a few times. No more gunk problem.

Wetting Agent vs Plastics

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