Wetting agent destroys bottles?

JPD · Jul 11, 2015

I bought Kodak Photoflo some time ago, and poured some in a smaller 100 ml plastic bottle (polypropylene, I believe) that I always have on the sink for easy access. Some months later I noticed that the upper part of the bottle cap had come loose in the shape of a circle. I checked the photoflo bottle, and it had a big hole in the bottom and emptied of all its contents. The Photoflo had melted the plastic. :confused:

Has this happened to anyone else? I wonder how it could have happened. My darkroom is cool (about 20-21 degrees Celsius) and of course dark, so it can't be the heat or light. The Photoflo bottles must sit on shelves for months in stores, and why don't they leak there?

I need to buy more wetting agent, but I might go for another brand this time, and use a glass bottle.

gone · Jul 11, 2015

Mine's been under the sink for a couple of years now. No issues w/ the bottle that it came in, nor in the bigger 32 oz plastic bottle that I have mixed up to working solution. I don't think it was your Photo-Flo, unless something contaminated it. There's nothing acidic in there.

JPD · Jul 11, 2015

momus said:
Mine's been under the sink for a couple of years now. No issues w/ the bottle that it came in, nor in the bigger 32 oz plastic bottle that I have mixed up to working solution. I don't think it was your Photo-Flo, unless something contaminated it. There's nothing acidic in there.

Maybe not acidic, but something in it did react with the plastic. It smelled and worked as usual. I should have written down the batch number and contacted Kodak. Too late for that now.

I think I will try Adoflo this time.

Sirius Glass · Jul 11, 2015

I have not experienced a problem like that with PhotoFlo. It sounds like a defective plastic bottle.

Peter Rockstroh01 · Jul 11, 2015

The problem is that the polymers used to make the bottles are sensitive to certain chemical ingredients. HIgh Density Polyethylene and Polypropylene can be attacked by some tensoactives, plasticizers and others products,, causing bottles and/or caps to loose their dimensional stability. Probably bottles from the most recent lots have been stabilzed with. the right choice of polymer + additives, but older products should probably refilled into glass bottles.

MattKing · Jul 11, 2015

It may be that surfactants like Photo Flo are incompatible with that bottle material.

The constituent components in Photo Flo are listed in the MSDS as:

Weight percent Components - (CAS-No.)
25 - 30 Propylene glycol (57-55-6)
5 - 10 Octylphenoxypolyethoxyethanol (9036-19-5)

MattKing · Jul 11, 2015

Or in other words - blame the bottle.

Peter Rockstroh01 · Jul 12, 2015

Thanks for the info Matt. Yes, the old bottles coukd not withstand prolonged exposure to the glycol. And for some strange reason, nor did the old bottles of Selenium toner. They would lose stability as well.

JPD · Jul 12, 2015

Ok, I'll blame the plastics. It is probably best to use a glass bottle for the Adoflo. The little 100 ml bottle was a lab bottle and you would think that they are made for all kinds of chemicals.

Sirius Glass · Jul 12, 2015

Jobo 1 liter and 60ml work well and last well too. The wide mouth makes it easier to return the chemical to them.

AgX · Jul 12, 2015

I know a bit of plastics and their chemical stability and have experienced them deteriorating.
But I find it very hard to believe that Photo-Flow has deteriorated that bottle.

Ian Grant · Jul 12, 2015

AgX said:
I know a bit of plastics and their chemical stability and have experienced them deteriorating.
But I find it very hard to believe that Photo-Flow has deteriorated that bottle.

Some bottles/plastics are designed to break down with time. I stored some plant food solution which came as crystals in a plastic milk bottle and that broke down and leaked in less than a year. I also stored books in supermarket bags after moving house many disintegrated within a couple of years.

Ian

railwayman3 · Jul 12, 2015

Ian Grant said:
Some bottles/plastics are designed to break down with time. I stored some plant food solution which came as crystals in a plastic milk bottle and that broke down and leaked in less than a year. I also stored books in supermarket bags after moving house many disintegrated within a couple of years.

Ian

Could well be that many modern plastic bottles are biodegradable, whereas this was not the case in the past. I have a small brown plastic bottle of Tetenal Mirasol wetting agent/antistatic dated 1970 which is still fine...a much thicker harder plastic than many modern bottles, though no indication of the type (we didn't recycle then!).

RalphLambrecht · Jul 12, 2015

JPD said:
I bought Kodak Photoflo some time ago, and poured some in a smaller 100 ml plastic bottle (polypropylene, I believe) that I always have on the sink for easy access. Some months later I noticed that the upper part of the bottle cap had come loose in the shape of a circle. I checked the photoflo bottle, and it had a big hole in the bottom and emptied of all its contents. The Photoflo had melted the plastic. :confused:

Has this happened to anyone else? I wonder how it could have happened. My darkroom is cool (about 20-21 degrees Celsius) and of course dark, so it can't be the heat or light. The Photoflo bottles must sit on shelves for months in stores, and why don't they leak there?

I need to buy more wetting agent, but I might go for another brand this time, and use a glass bottle.

Are you sure the bottle is of PP.I think it should be made of polyethylene because of the ethanol in photoflow.Can you heck?:confused:

AgX · Jul 12, 2015

-) both PE and PP are resistant against Ethanol

-) there is not even Ethanol in Photo-Flow

DannL. · Jul 12, 2015

I now store mixed photo-Flo in the plastic bottles that windshield washer fluid comes in for the horseless carriage. They work very well. Previous to that, I was mixing and storing photo-flo in the distilled water bottles that the water came in. But the plastic was too thin and one bottle emptied itself on my workbench. Big mess.

Sirius Glass · Jul 12, 2015

AgX said:
I know a bit of plastics and their chemical stability and have experienced them deteriorating.
But I find it very hard to believe that Photo-Flow has deteriorated that bottle.

Yes, blame the bottle.

fotch · Jul 12, 2015

Glass is class, full proof, at least for photo use.

JPD · Jul 12, 2015

RalphLambrecht said:
Are you sure the bottle is of PP.I think it should be made of polyethylene because of the ethanol in photoflow.Can you heck?:confused:

I don't have the bottle here, but it's made of a "milky" plastic. But the bottle itself is fine, it's just the cap that reacted with the Photoflo. I see on google that some lab bottles are made of HDPE and have PP caps.

AgX · Jul 12, 2015

At the start you said the cap was cracked and the bottom deteriorated.

Cracking caps is a typical fault I encounter with the single-use PET water bottles I use for hiking and seemingly twist on the PP caps too hard.

Peter Rockstroh01 · Jul 12, 2015

The "milky" plastic is polyethylene. Polypropylene is a similar polymer, but it has better optical properties, as it can be clarified (made transparent). It is, however, harder to stabilize for long-term use. The cracks in caps and bottoms can be stress induced, but are commonly caused because these thin parts react faster to the chemicals that attack them.

BetterSense · Jul 12, 2015

I just today transferred my photo flow from the Kodak bottle to a LDPE squeeze bottle. I hope it doesn't melt. The Kodak bottle was HDPE.

AgX · Jul 12, 2015

Please could anyone hint at a ingredient of Photo-Flow that might "melt" PE (in whatever modification).

JPD · Jul 12, 2015

Would a dropper bottle with glass pipette work, or would the wetting agent react with the rubber bulb?

AgX said:
At the start you said the cap was cracked and the bottom deteriorated.

Different bottles. The cap's on the 100 ml lab bottle, and the orignial Kodak bottle had the leak.

Peter Rockstroh01 · Jul 12, 2015

AgX said:
Please could anyone hint at a ingredient of Photo-Flow that might "melt" PE (in whatever modification).

Probably the glycol. I have a publication of "Everything you never wanted to know about stuff you shouldn't pour into plastic containers," which I'll gladly send to anyone interested. Send me a PM.

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