Werra V Mark 2 with Prestor RVS Shutter - anyone had one apart?

I must say, this has been one of the most challenging tear-downs I have ever attempted...



I have a Werra V, Mark 2 with a Prestor RVS shutter that I purchased five or six years ago that had a frozen shutter but was in amazing shape otherwise with Carl Zeiss Jenna 50mm f2.8 and 100mm f4 lenses, case and accessories; even the light meter worked.

This was just about the time I fancied myself a budding camera repairman,so I carefully removed the shutter and plunked it down in a bath of naptha. It freed-up for a few shots and then locked-up again. After about 3 increasingly long baths in naptha, I became impatient and went for the acetone.

Bad move.

The shutter totally seized and after poking around on it for a few hours, gave up and put it in a storage bin with notes and careful diagrams.

Fast forward to about a month ago; I ran across the camera and decided to give it another go.

It has been quite the education.

First of all: the Prestor RVS has insulators on the flash sync connectors that dissolve in Acetone. The plastic like material had redeposited throughout the shutter and the metallic connector (buss) that carries the electrical connection from the shutter to the sync port fell out in two incredibly tiny assemblies that took a bit of puzzling to determine how they worked and where they went back. I had to fabricate a spacer made out of waste plastic to replace the dissolved insulator, but I think I was successful.

I then took couple weeks clearing out the dissolved insulator with more acetone after determining that no other parts would be dissolved.

After that, I started what I call, "the prestor dance" of reassembling the cocking, speed detent and cover rings on the shutter. Whoever designed this fiendish shutter was either a genius or a total madman. You need 4 pairs of hands, the eyes of an eagle and the patience of Job to reassemble the top of this unit!

I now have it to where I can assemble the unit, it will fire ONCE and then jam. I take it apart, examine it carefully and do it again. Exact same problem.

I have been consulting Simon Hawketts' very instructive Camera Blog posting on his Werramat repairs, and tried to contact him, but so far no response.

I am missing some subtle step in the reassembly process.

Anyone have experience with this shutter?

Has you read through this repair thread? https://www.rangefinderforum.com/classics/forum/messages/2/15994.html?1266642092
I suggest replacing the volatile chemicals with 90% alcohol and flushing it face down in an ultrasonic cleaner with the face removed and submerged in the alcohol. Run the ultrasonic for 3 to 5 minutes, allow to cool for 15 minutes then repeat 3 or 4 times. Warm to hot alcohol will strip the finish where finger oils are present or the shutter has been handled regularly.
It may be similar to a Prontor shutter in design. Prontor shutter repair manuals can be downloaded from my google drive, https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B1sPJkp-MdghNGM1aGY5akgtTmc

A shade tree camera repair persons alignment tool is useful for stubborn cameras. https://www.homedepot.com/p/TEKTON-3-lb-Sledge-Hammer-31103/205560102

shutterfinger said:

Has you read through this repair thread? https://www.rangefinderforum.com/classics/forum/messages/2/15994.html?1266642092
I suggest replacing the volatile chemicals with 90% alcohol and flushing it face down in an ultrasonic cleaner with the face removed and submerged in the alcohol. Run the ultrasonic for 3 to 5 minutes, allow to cool for 15 minutes then repeat 3 or 4 times. Warm to hot alcohol will strip the finish where finger oils are present or the shutter has been handled regularly.
It may be similar to a Prontor shutter in design. Prontor shutter repair manuals can be downloaded from my google drive, https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B1sPJkp-MdghNGM1aGY5akgtTmc

A shade tree camera repair persons alignment tool is useful for stubborn cameras. https://www.homedepot.com/p/TEKTON-3-lb-Sledge-Hammer-31103/205560102

Click to expand...

Thanks! I will go back and re-read that thread more closely, but I do recall looking at it once...

Profuse thanks for the Prontor manuals! I wish I had something to offer in return; I have a document on fabricating camera repair parts from scratch coming to me via mail. Would you like a scan of that?

Do you use any insulator to keep the shutter from resting on the bottom of the ultrasonic cleaner? Since the reservoir on my cleaner is so large, I might place the shutter in a small, thin container with alcohol and float that in the reservoir to keep the volume manageable.

As for adjustment tools, I have been exploring something in the megaton region...

I have a small ultrasonic cleaner that holds about a pint and a half. It has a plastic parts basket with 1/8 inch square openings in it like window screen.
Strip the insulation from electrical wire the same internal diameter of the flash contact parts for insulators. Some shutters use nylon bushings.
I've encountered some shutters that the pivots would not come clean until they were disassembled and flushed out then rubbed with a round wood toothpick saturated with cleaner.

I've quit working on cameras.

Good luck with your Werra! I have a Werramatic, with all three lenses. Michael Zack did a CLA, adjusted the rangefinder, cleaned and lubed the 50mm, etc. Given your experience with the shutter, I'm sure your can appreciate that Mike's work wasn't cheap! But my Werramatic is a pleasure to use, once you adjust to its quirks.

shutterfinger said:

I have a small ultrasonic cleaner that holds about a pint and a half. It has a plastic parts basket with 1/8 inch square openings in it like window screen.
Strip the insulation from electrical wire the same internal diameter of the flash contact parts for insulators. Some shutters use nylon bushings.
I've encountered some shutters that the pivots would not come clean until they were disassembled and flushed out then rubbed with a round wood toothpick saturated with cleaner.

I've quit working on cameras.

Click to expand...

I stuck the shutter in a small ziploc bag, filled it with 99% iso and then put another bag around that and hung it in my ultrasonic cleaner in a water bath for the times you mentioned tonight. Will let it dry overnight and see how it feels in the morning. Thanks!

I don't blame you for quitting... seems a rather peculiar way to "relax".

GRHazelton said:

Good luck with your Werra! I have a Werramatic, with all three lenses. Michael Zack did a CLA, adjusted the rangefinder, cleaned and lubed the 50mm, etc. Given your experience with the shutter, I'm sure your can appreciate that Mike's work wasn't cheap! But my Werramatic is a pleasure to use, once you adjust to its quirks.

Click to expand...

No kidding! I had that very same notion about a CLA about 2 weeks into this "adventure". Whomever works on these cameras and can do it in a reasonably short period of time, deserves the extra pay!

I am only missing the 35mm lens, but have my eye on getting one IF this adventure works out. It's a very solid feeling camera and I'd really like to shoot with it. We will see!

The quiet, uncluttered outside design of the early Werras is unmatched by other cameras. Release button, no other dials or knobs. (Until you remove the sunshade). It should be given a prize as "most stylish camera ever".

I did know that the unique higher speed shutter had an extra set of blades, but not that it was so fiendishly difficult to repair.

p.

UPDATE: the front shutter is firing reliably now after a few more cleanings and a very light dusting of superfine graphite, but the capping shutter will not function on a regular basis. I have found, however, if I ever so slightly push the shutter cocking lever toward the extreme end of its terminal travel, the capping shutter functions 100% of the time. This suggest to me that the main cocking spring has stretched slightly and no longer supplies enough tension to latch the capping shutter lever after firing. I'll have to try to shorten the spring a few coils; I hate doing that. It is so easy to botch...

ph said:

The quiet, uncluttered outside design of the early Werras is unmatched by other cameras.

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But this applies only on the Werra 0 and Werra 1, especialliy the 0, out of the first Werra series. They more advanced models of course are more cluttered (rangefinder and meter windows). Later series first got that name patch ands a further series got that top of front cover and accessory shoe.

Does anyone know if the same ever ready case fits all the Werra models? I'd like to be able to preserve my WerraMatic's pristine condition.

GRHazelton said:

Does anyone know if the same ever ready case fits all the Werra models? I'd like to be able to preserve my WerraMatic's pristine condition.

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Good question; I'd like to know as well.

If anyone knows French, maybe this person would be the one to ask:
http://krg.pagesperso-orange.fr/werra/werra.htm

I used Google Translate, but have been unable to find such information on the site.

GRHazelton said:

Does anyone know if the same ever ready case fits all the Werra models? I'd like to be able to preserve my WerraMatic's pristine condition.

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Quick answer is yes, the actual bodie's are pretty much the same size, all the cameras, from the flat top that was the first though the round top and the high top are all the same size, I have working examples of them all and various cases I have picked up over the years, including the Olive green mark 1, the very early one with the Compur shutter, the were made with the Compur for a couple of years untill Zeis Ikon in West Germany refused to sell Carl Zeiss the shutters and the used the Prestor shutter, and every camera fits every case,
Richard

The models seem to vary in dimensions. So cases may vary, unless they made one big enough for all.

AgX said:

The models seem to vary in dimensions. So cases may vary, unless they made one big enough for all.

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I have at least 4 of them, from one of the earliest olive green ones with the Compur shutter, which is a flat top model, to round top models right up to the last range, the so called high top, and puttingn them side by side you would be hard pressed to see a difference in size, I have cases for them all, and the case from the very early olive green flat top happily takes the high top werramatic from the mk3, there may be very slight differences but for all practical purposes the bodies with the standard Tessar 50mm lens are the same size and the cases are interchable, from the early all leather cases to the later cases with the plastic nose
Richard

R.Gould said:

I have at least 4 of them, from one of the earliest olive green ones with the Compur shutter, which is a flat top model, to round top models right up to the last range, the so called high top, and puttingn them side by side you would be hard pressed to see a difference in size, I have cases for them all, and the case from the very early olive green flat top happily takes the high top werramatic from the mk3, there may be very slight differences but for all practical purposes the bodies with the standard Tessar 50mm lens are the same size and the cases are interchable, from the early all leather cases to the later cases with the plastic nose
Richard

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Many thanks, Richard! I'll keep watch for a serviceable case.

Well I shortened the main tension spring and the shutter fired OK repeatedly outside of the body, but upon installation it seems to have reverted to it's former tricks.

Ah torment...

Kino said:

Well I shortened the main tension spring and the shutter fired OK repeatedly outside of the body, but upon installation it seems to have reverted to it's former tricks.

Click to expand...

So its the mounting on the body causing the troubles. I've seen shutters that would operate properly with the face plate/speed ring loose but fail when they were tightened correctly.
Look for something in the mounting causing a bind.

Thanks Shutterfinger, but stick a fork in me, I am done.

At least it leaves a pretty corpse...


On Quitting
By Edgar Albert Guest
How much grit do you think you’ve got?
Can you quit a thing that you like a lot?
You may talk of pluck; it’s an easy word,
And where’er you go it is often heard;
But can you tell to a jot or guess
Just how much courage you now possess?

You may stand to trouble and keep your grin,
But have you tackled self-discipline?
Have you ever issued commands to you
To quit the things that you like to do,
And then, when tempted and sorely swayed,
Those rigid orders have you obeyed?

Don’t boast of your grit till you’ve tried it out,
Nor prate to men of your courage stout,
For it’s easy enough to retain a grin
In the face of a fight there’s a chance to win,
But the sort of grit that is good to own
Is the stuff you need when you’re all alone.

How much grit do you think you’ve got?
Can you turn from joys that you like a lot?
Have you ever tested yourself to know
How far with yourself your will can go?
If you want to know if you have grit,
Just pick out a joy that you like, and quit.

It’s bully sport and it’s open fight;
It will keep you busy both day and night;
For the toughest kind of a game you’ll find
Is to make your body obey your mind.
And you never will know what is meant by grit
Unless there’s something you’ve tried to quit.