Well, that's it for Australians buying goods from overseas

BrianShaw · Jun 1, 2018

AgX said:
I do not understand at all your upheaval abaut that taxation.

At one hand there is a lot of whining about local camera stores closing, with all their expenses. The same time there is now great happiness about those retailers not collecting taxes, as some importers or in the USA mail-order firms.

I'm not too certain who you are addressing... but I share a bit of what I think is confusing to you.

The call for taxation equity I can understand. If a country/state/county/municipality needs to raise funds via taxation then it should be equitable and evenly applied. Loopholes should be filled. (I like these kind of tax loopholes as much as the next guy... but in the long run it really isn't a major issue if/when they get plugged... for me, at least)

But in the case of the Australian retailers who (may) think that filling the GST loophole will drive customers back to them... perhaps they aren't seeing the big picture. Per Carriage's post, they also need to reduce their prices to be competitive with the foreign mail order retailers.

As far as Hoffy (and other Australians) posting in this thread is/are concerned, it was made clear several times that this thread isn't about being stressed over paying taxes but worry about having an affordable source cut off, which for now seems to not be happening.

Sirius Glass · Jun 1, 2018

BrianShaw said:
I'm not too certain who you are addressing... but I share a bit of what I think is confusing to you.

The call for taxation equity I can understand. If a country/state/county/municipality needs to raise funds via taxation then it should be equitable and evenly applied. Loopholes should be filled. (I like these kind of tax loopholes as much as the next guy... but in the long run it really isn't a major issue if/when they get plugged... for me, at least)

But in the case of the Australian retailers who (may) think that filling the GST loophole will drive customers back to them... perhaps they aren't seeing the big picture. Per Carriage's post, they also need to reduce their prices to be competitive with the foreign mail order retailers.

As far as Hoffy (and other Australians) posting in this thread is/are concerned, it was made clear several times that this thread isn't about being stressed over paying taxes but worry about having an affordable source cut off, which for now seems to not be happening.

Nice summary. Thank you

faberryman · Jun 1, 2018

Eliminating the GST loophole will do nothing to fix the problem with brick and mortar stores - limited selection and non-existent inventory. I would like to support my local camera store but they don't carry many of the items that I want, and when they do, they are not in stock. Not to mention the time and gas to drive over there to find out they don't have it. The fact that I also have to pay sales tax is just insult on injury.

Sirius Glass · Jun 1, 2018

faberryman said:
Eliminating the GST loophole will do nothing to fix the problem with brick and mortar stores - limited selection and non-existent inventory. I would like to support my local camera store but they don't carry many of the items that I want, and when they do, they are not in stock. Not to mention the time and gas to drive over there to find out they don't have it. The fact that I also have to pay sales tax is just insult on injury.

I have the same problem, but sometimes I will drive a few miles to FreeStyle rather than use the internet just to keep them in business. That adds the cost of gas and local taxes to the higher prices.

MattKing · Jun 1, 2018

Ces1um said:
Australia is charging GST on any foreign purchases. Don't say that too loudly or Canada will end up doing the same thing! Luckily for us amazon.ca has everything amazon.com does....for the most part.

Canada already charges GST and acts as a collector for the applicable provincial sales tax ("PST") on all foreign purchases - when they elect to process and collect it.
However, due to the administrative burden - it costs money to do it - the majority of small, non-commercial purchases come in tax free.
With respect to the PST, the legislation here (and I expect all the other provinces) puts the onus on the purchaser to calculate and remit the PST on every taxable transaction, unless the purchaser is advised that the seller is a PST registrant and undertakes to collect and remit same.
The provinces have a more limited taxation power than the federal government, so while the GST taxes Goods and Services (the G and S in GST), there are limited situations where the provinces are able to tax services.
In Canada's case, the calculation, payment and remittance happens at the point of entry to Canada, so the administrative burden is borne in Canada. In some cases there are exceptions - B & H's system for sales to Canada is an example - but those exceptions are put in place to increase the convenience for Canadian consumers. Having the taxes calculated at the border and requiring payment before the items are released involves delay and inconvenience (and expense if brokerage is required) for the purchaser.
What our Australian friends are complaining about is their government's attempt to force foreign sellers to collect and remit the taxes in the same way that Australian sellers are.
Arguably, it is fair that every purchase of like goods (or services) attracts the same sort of taxation. The means of implementation is what is being discussed here.
By the way, I expect this will also affect those of our Australian friends who send items out of country for repair.

BrianShaw · Jun 1, 2018

Matt/Hoffy... are services taxed or just goods/materials? (Please forgive me if this has been discussed earlier.)

Here in California I don't believe we pay sales tax on services.

MattKing · Jun 1, 2018

GST is a Goods and Services tax in Canada. I don't know why anyone would call it GST if it doesn't include services.
Our provincial sales tax in BC does apply to certain services as well - auto repairs, funerals and legal services amongst them - but very specific special legislation is required for that purpose.
In the past I have been both a PST registrant and responsible for administering GST and PST for the organizations I worked for, so I have some hands on experience with our taxes.
In our case, the GST is a sort of Value Added Tax, while the PST is just paid by end purchasers.
If I buy something from B&H and get it shipped here, they collect GST (5%) and BC's PST (7%) plus any duties that may be due - which depends on the item and the country of origin.
Otherwise I have to either involve a customs broker, have it sent to a US address and handle the importation when I bring it into the country, or have it mailed and take a chance that Canada Customs will just send it through without taxes and duties and nominal brokerage fee at the Canada Post facility set up for foreign originating parcels.
By the way, in most cases I don't have to pay anything when I pick up something in the US (about 20 minutes away for me) and declare it at the border. Their value threshold seems to be really high now. I always assume though that I will be required to pay, and factor that into my price calculations.

BrianShaw · Jun 1, 2018

Matt... thanks. When I read your first sentence I did a face-palm, or is it a palm-slap. [EDIT: It's a face-palm for expressing embarrassment; palm-slap is something else that is done in jubilation.] No matter... how embarrassed am I?

MattKing · Jun 1, 2018

BrianShaw said:
Matt... thanks. When I read your first sentence I did a face-palm, or is it a palm-slap. [EDIT: It's a face-palm for expressing embarrassment; palm-slap is something else that is done in jubilation.] No matter... how embarrassed am I?

I don't know why you would be embarrassed. I don't know whether the Australian GST also stands for Goods and Services Tax, but it certainly is possible (if fairly unlikely) that it stands for something else.

AgX · Jun 1, 2018

BrianShaw said:
Here in California I don't believe we pay sales tax on services.

Here in Europe we got VAT, a tax collected on goods and services.

Sirius Glass · Jun 1, 2018

BrianShaw said:
Matt/Hoffy... are services taxed or just goods/materials? (Please forgive me if this has been discussed earlier.)

Here in California I don't believe we pay sales tax on services.

You are correct. Occasionally a cashier will put tax on services, and I have to correct them.

hoffy · Jun 1, 2018

As already stated, its a 10% goods and services tax, so yes, goods and services are both covered by the tax.

For general retail, the tax portion is already pre-determined and incorporated in the price. As a whole, for a normal consumer, you are not aware that you are paying the tax - you pay one price and it is included. We also don't have regional taxes - all the money goes to the federal government, who then distributes it to the states (which always ends in a shit fight between politicians).

But, as with real life, its not that straight forward. GST is applied to non essential items. Fresh fruit and vegetables are GST free. But then it gets all a bit crazy. For example, if you buy a whole cooked chicken, but its cold, its GST free. Hot, its not. Condoms are GST Free. Womens Sanitary products are not - the last example has caused a bit of a furore over the years and is one of the most bizarre applications of the "non essential" rules

And then you get the out of touch politicians lobbying for an exemption for other reasons. Last week, one of the federal members lobbied parliament for a GST exemption on the purchase and charter of mega luxury yachts, because he says the industry is too small in Australia......

So, yes, it is probably a lot easier to deal with compared to the US, but it is not without its complications.

Anyhow, as already stated, the GST was never the problem - it was the potential of retailers closing up or restricting sales to Australia that was.

Cheers

AgX · Jun 1, 2018

hoffy said:
But, as with real life, its not that straight forward. GST is applied to non essential items. Fresh fruit and vegetables are GST free. But then it gets all a bit crazy. For example, if you buy a whole cooked chicken, but its cold, its GST free. Hot, its not. Condoms are GST Free. Womens Sanitary products are not - the last example has caused a bit of a furore over the years and is one of the most bizarre applications of the "non essential" rules.

We got the same craziness over here. In some case there is a social idea behind it, with others I can't think of anything else than lobbying.
With the case of your chicken I assume there is the social idea to keep foodstuff tax free, whereas with a cooked chicken service has been added and it can be seen as luxury item, but then such concept would be based on gone times when mother still was preparing the meals and when convenience food was not yet a neccessity with mother working out of house.

sabredog · Jun 1, 2018

MattKing said:
I don't know why you would be embarrassed. I don't know whether the Australian GST also stands for Goods and Services Tax, but it certainly is possible (if fairly unlikely) that it stands for something else.

It does stand for Goods and Services Tax.

As I said before, I have no issue paying an extra 10% for a purchased item as that item is still much cheaper regardless. Before the rise of popularity of online shopping Australia's were well aware of the vast array of goods and services available in other market places compared to what was offered locally. Not only that, far cheaper as well, so it is little wonder Australians flocked to online shopping once estores grew and those markets opened up to local buyers. Physical chain stores, often run by a single owner (Gerry Harvey "oh happy days!"), started a campaign for the previous and incumbent government to close that loophole stupidly (arrogantly) believing that customers would return to their businesses that continued to offer an expensive and narrow range of items. Of the other vast array of items available online, no sign.

Now this impost to close a tax loophole has now punished the Australian consumer who once again has been geoblocked from a bigger market. Yes, there is an Amazon outlet locally, but like Netflix, it only offers a fraction of what Australian's are accustomed to being able to access through online purchasing. There is a lot of anger growing here, directed to both the government for being clumsy with the implementation and more so, Amazon, who took the easy way out. In the end the real winner will probably be freight redirection companies.

I do not buy a lot of camera related stuff like developing supplies online, but my other hobby (scale model building) will be affected so I am pretty annoyed right now.

Sirius Glass · Jun 1, 2018

When Europeans and others who have some form of VAT come to the US they are shocked and confused about sales taxes. They expect the price to be what is marked on the product. As a cashier one has to explain the concept of sales tax.

Alan Edward Klein · Jun 1, 2018

Sirius Glass said:
When Europeans and others who have some form of VAT come to the US they are shocked and confused about sales taxes. They expect the price to be what is marked on the product. As a cashier one has to explain the concept of sales tax.

European VAT's and other add-on taxes are "hidden" to fool Europeans as to how much of the real cost of the item is just taxes. It's why a $1000 Nikon in the US costs the equivalent of $1400 in Europe. That same high, hidden tax paying public then proudly claims how they have "free" health care unlike Americans who have to pay for health care. It's bizarre how people fool themselves. Nothing's for free.

Ozxplorer · Jun 1, 2018

Sirius Glass said:
When Europeans and others who have some form of VAT come to the US they are shocked and confused about sales taxes. They expect the price to be what is marked on the product. As a cashier one has to explain the concept of sales tax.

In OZ, all prices quoted must be GST inclusive... so when you finally make it downnder, no surprises for you!

MattKing · Jun 1, 2018

Ozxplorer said:
In OZ, all prices quoted must be GST inclusive... so when you finally make it downnder, no surprises for you!

Sadly, although that is an option in Canada, most have elected to add the taxes at the cash register.
Whether the shelf price includes the taxes or not, by law the invoice/cash register receipt must still break out and detail the taxes charged and paid for.

Theo Sulphate · Jun 1, 2018

Sirius Glass said:
When Europeans and others who have some form of VAT come to the US they are shocked and confused about sales taxes. They expect the price to be what is marked on the product. ...

Some states, such as Oregon, have no sales tax, so the price marked is what you pay.

Even for states with a sales tax, usually food that you buy in a store (as opposed to being served) and medicine is not taxed.

Some states have no income tax. The theory, I suppose, is that it is more fair to tax one's consumption than income. Poorer people don't get penalized on their income and can control their sales tax by avoiding more expensive products.

So the U.S. combinations are:

- states with no income tax and no sales tax (e.g. Alaska)
- states with no income tax and sales tax (e.g. Washington)
- states with income tax and no sales tax (e.g. Oregon)
- states with income tax and sales tax (most states)

Additionally, there are a few cities that impose a tax.

sabredog · Jun 1, 2018

A receipt must show the total GST amount for any goods or service. RRP or cost per item include 10% GST with the receipt must show the total GST amount. As a Civil Engineer professionally, I deal with a lot of service authorities and consultants. Any quotations supplied must always provide an amount GST inclusive (either a total or breakdown, showing GST amount) or in the case of an invoice list the GST amount.

The invoice from a major supermarket below is where it is important to show the total amount of GST. As you can see it is not 10% of the total shown. Some items attract no GST while others do.

The original GST as proposed and passed through the lower house was a flat 10% on ALL goods and services so to replace the mix of varying wholesale taxes on different goods. Unfortunately political interference by a minor political party (now long gone) that held the balance of power in the Australian Senate at the time of the introduction of the GST legislation demanded changes and exemptions for support of the legislation. Like the UK any legislation must pass through both houses of parliament.

winger · Jun 1, 2018

Theo Sulphate said:
Some states, such as Oregon, have no sales tax, so the price marked is what you pay.

Even for states with a sales tax, usually food that you buy in a store (as opposed to being served) and medicine is not taxed.

Some states have no income tax. The theory, I suppose, is that it is more fair to tax one's consumption than income. Poorer people don't get penalized on their income and can control their sales tax by avoiding more expensive products.

So the U.S. combinations are:

- states with no income tax and no sales tax (e.g. Alaska)
- states with no income tax and sales tax (e.g. Washington)
- states with income tax and no sales tax (e.g. Oregon)
- states with income tax and sales tax (most states)

Additionally, there are a few cities that impose a tax.

And it's more complicated, too. In New York State, the state rate is 4%, but counties can impose their own (Herkimer County has 4.25%) and cities can add their own as well. Oneida County doesn't add any, but the city of Utica (in Oneida County) does.

AND, each state can be slightly different on what exactly is subject to the sales tax. In NY, clothing is taxed. But not in PA unless it's over a certain amount or is for a special occasion. Some food is and some is not.

In most states I've been in, the gas prices at the pump have the taxes added in even though everything else is not that way.

hoffy · Jun 1, 2018

sabredog said:
A receipt must show the total GST amount for any goods or service. RRP or cost per item include 10% GST with the receipt must show the total GST amount. As a Civil Engineer professionally, I deal with a lot of service authorities and consultants. Any quotations supplied must always provide an amount GST inclusive (either a total or breakdown, showing GST amount) or in the case of an invoice list the GST amount.

The invoice from a major supermarket below is where it is important to show the total amount of GST. As you can see it is not 10% of the total shown. Some items attract no GST while others do.

The original GST as proposed and passed through the lower house was a flat 10% on ALL goods and services so to replace the mix of varying wholesale taxes on different goods. Unfortunately political interference by a minor political party (now long gone) that held the balance of power in the Australian Senate at the time of the introduction of the GST legislation demanded changes and exemptions for support of the legislation. Like the UK any legislation must pass through both houses of parliament.

View attachment 201645

And then there is excise on tobacco and alcohol..... but that is for another thread (as a non smoking occasional drinker, I have no issues with these excises).

Sirius Glass · Jun 1, 2018

In California the sales tax varies slightly by city or county or both.

I prefer that the taxes be broken down on the receipt.

I would rather have health care covered than to have hospitals closed because too many patients cannot pay the inflated [in the US] medical bills. In the US we have the best politicians that money can by and the doctors and drug companies pay a high price to our politicians. Hence the reason that we are the only first world nation with fourth world health coverage.

Alan Edward Klein · Jun 1, 2018

Theo Sulphate said:
Some states, such as Oregon, have no sales tax, so the price marked is what you pay.

Even for states with a sales tax, usually food that you buy in a store (as opposed to being served) and medicine is not taxed.

Some states have no income tax. The theory, I suppose, is that it is more fair to tax one's consumption than income. Poorer people don't get penalized on their income and can control their sales tax by avoiding more expensive products.

So the U.S. combinations are:

- states with no income tax and no sales tax (e.g. Alaska)
- states with no income tax and sales tax (e.g. Washington)
- states with income tax and no sales tax (e.g. Oregon)
- states with income tax and sales tax (most states)

Additionally, there are a few cities that impose a tax.

How do government agencies avoid paying the VAT and other taxes in Australia? What about tax exempt organizations like churches?

Alan Edward Klein · Jun 1, 2018

Sirius Glass said:
In California the sales tax varies slightly by city or county or both.

I prefer that the taxes be broken down on the receipt.

I would rather have health care covered than to have hospitals closed because too many patients cannot pay the inflated [in the US] medical bills. In the US we have the best politicians that money can by and the doctors and drug companies pay a high price to our politicians. Hence the reason that we are the only first world nation with fourth world health coverage.

America is not a homogenous country. We have cultural, racial, ethnic, geographic, social, and other major differences among major populations of Americans. Some of these groups don't take care of themselves so the averages are brought down. Of course, no one wants to discuss these things for fear of being called bigoted. Plus, there's a huge political incentive among many liberal Americans who want universal medical coverage. So they use this "average" negative statistic as an argument for why we need government coverage. They never break out the statistics by groups. Most Americans are perfectly happy with their medical coverage, or were until the government screwed it up by getting involved.

Well, that's it for Australians buying goods from overseas

BrianShaw

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MattKing

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Well, that's it for Australians buying goods from overseas

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