Weird Photoflo Jello

Gatsby1923 · Sep 12, 2007

OK This is weird. About 2 weeks ago I mixed up some photoflo with distilled water. I let it sit on my shelve untouched. Today when I went to use it I decided to add a few ml of Isopropyl Alcohol to it to speed the drying of the film. Well I didnt have any Isopropyl Alcohol but in the other room I had a lot of Denatured Alcohol so I decide to see what happens. I slipped with the bottle and poured in a lot more than a few ml

What happened really surprised me and I dont know if it was the alcohol that did it. A large hunk of slime about the consistency of Jello came out. I was able to pick it up in my hand but some hot water flushed it down the drain

What the heck did I do?

Pinholemaster · Sep 12, 2007

Didn't they make a movie about this, with a remake - Flubber?

Whatever you did, don't do it again.

I prefer my PhotoFlo straight up with no chaser.

Vaughn · Sep 12, 2007

I had a similar problem once mixing up some Kodak Photo-flo 2100 (yes, it is diluted 1:2100 for use). It turned into a sort of gummy mess. Don't know what happened (I did not use any alcohol like you did , though). Now I add the concentrate very very slowly to the water and do not have the problem.

From the Photo-flo 2100 concentrate, I make a gallon of stock solution designed to be diluted at one ounce per gallon to get the working solution. Since it has an infinite storage life-span, that gallon of stock solution lasts a year or more for our university darkroom -- and the one ounce per gallon is easy for my student lab assistants to mix up.

As the pinholemeister suggested -- don't do it again!

Fun with chemistry...

Vaughn

Rolleijoe · Sep 17, 2007

Where to find out what you did

Gatsby1923 said:
OK This is weird. About 2 weeks ago I mixed up some photoflo with distilled water. I let it sit on my shelve untouched. Today when I went to use it I decided to add a few ml of Isopropyl Alcohol to it to speed the drying of the film. Well I didnt have any Isopropyl Alcohol but in the other room I had a lot of Denatured Alcohol so I decide to see what happens. I slipped with the bottle and poured in a lot more than a few ml

What happened really surprised me and I dont know if it was the alcohol that did it. A large hunk of slime about the consistency of Jello came out. I was able to pick it up in my hand but some hot water flushed it down the drain

What the heck did I do?

Why not call Kodak and ask them directly? 1-800-242-2424 x19

Photo Engineer · Sep 17, 2007

Do not ever use denatured alcohol in photographic solutions. You can see why if you pour some into water. If forms a cloudy mixture due to the denaturing agent. This is probably what interacted with the Photo Flo, but I cannot be sure. I just know that denatured alcohol is a no-no in photo solutions.

PE

Akki14 · Sep 17, 2007

I just happened to be reading wikipedia today and read that sometimes mustard oil is used to denature alcohol... can't be good for film.

eric · Sep 17, 2007

Photo Engineer said:
Do not ever use denatured alcohol in photographic solutions. You can see why if you pour some into water. If forms a cloudy mixture due to the denaturing agent. This is probably what interacted with the Photo Flo, but I cannot be sure. I just know that denatured alcohol is a no-no in photo solutions.

PE

Is rubbing alchohol the same thing? I always put some in a gallon of distilled h2o/photo-flo/rubbin alchohol. It keeps scum from forming. I haven't had a problem (yet) but is there something I should look for in signs from the neg? What are the ill effects?

Photo Engineer · Sep 17, 2007

If the alcohol creates a cloudy mixture when added to water, it is not good. I cannot tell what all types of alcohol are bad. We only used the equivalent of Everclear. That is the only alcohol that I know of that is suitable for use in photographic applications.

PE

gminerich · Sep 17, 2007

Ethanol is grain alcohol (Everclear) - as in drinks, wine, beer
Rubbing alcohol is usually isopropyl alcohol some times blended with methanol.
Denatured alcohol is usually ethanol with methanol (wood) alcohol.
The methanol is the denaturing part -- when consumed it will make you sick, blind or can kill.

Common sources of isopropyl – rubbing alcohol or automotive gas line deicer.
Common sources of methanol – automotive gas line deicer or automotive windshield washer/deicer.
Common source of Ethanol – vodka, Everclear or other spirits.

Ethanol turns cloudy when added to water.

Cheers!

George

Photo Engineer · Sep 17, 2007

George;

Sorry, but ethanol does NOT turn cloudy when added to water. You can add Everclear to water and it remains clear. The denaturant is what causes the cloudiness in some cases.

Methanol is no longer allowed as a denaturant due to the fact that it causes blindness. The current agent added is very bitter and with a bad taste but with no odor. The alcohol with this clouds up in water.

Pure isopropyl alcohol is rubbing alcohol in some states and in others is not. It is labeled Iso Propyl Alcohol in some states. It is never denatured and can be used in photographic applications when pure enough.

Methanol can be used in photographic applications if one remembers that it can cause blindness if used carelessly. Inhalation of the fumes is quite harmful and Methanol is more volatile than Ethanol or Iso Propyl Alcohol.

Supply houses such as the Photographers Formulary sell both Methanol and Iso Propyl Alcohol which is pure enough for use in photographic solutions.

Remember that Photo Flo was designed to be water soluable. Too much alcohol could cause it to gel.

PE

gminerich · Sep 17, 2007

PS: it could be the methanol creating the Flubber - not sure.

I would also like to note that alcohol is used as an industrial solvent and can dissolve rubber and plastic. Did you ever hear about gasohol dissolving the rubber in older engines. Gasohol is usually 90% gasoline and 10% ethanol (Everclear or grain alcohol).

For me, alcohol has no place in the darkroom except my beverage of choice (in moderation).

Photo Engineer · Sep 17, 2007

Read my last post.

PE

Photo Engineer · Sep 18, 2007

I remembered something last night after I logged off that might help clarify this.

The color film stabilzers at one time, were nothing more than formalin + photo flo + methanol. This made a clear solution in water. So, this is a good indication that a pure alcohol can be mixed with photo flo with no problem.

PE

Gatsby1923 · Sep 18, 2007

Hey thanks for the great info PE.... I will never use denatured alcohol again. I'll stick with grain alcohol and isoprobal... still was hoping i invented some new space age polymer! LOL

Dave M

Photo Engineer · Sep 18, 2007

You probably did. Ever see the "Blob" with Steve McQueen?

PE

Gatsby1923 · Sep 20, 2007

Photo Engineer said:
You probably did. Ever see the "Blob" with Steve McQueen?

PE

I'll be sure to share my Nobel Prize money with APUG

Dave M

Joe VanCleave · Sep 22, 2007

I've found 90% isopropyl alcohol available at drugstore chains like Walgreens, and have used it in a mixture with distilled water as a final rinse for sheet film, with good results.

Just make sure you use 90% or greater, and not the 70%.

Weird Photoflo Jello

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Weird Photoflo Jello