Web Site design - Flash

I have to agree with Mr. Zimmermann.
The WWW was designed to be viewed by everybody in the phisilophy that if you had a certain technology it could be utilised, if not you should not kept away from the information. I remember in the old days that I could use my Amiga, a Unix workstation at the university or a dumb or VT100 (text-only) terminal and still be able to access the internet. Now with small portable communication devices (like cell phones and palm pilots) the internet has seen a new different access point than the desktop PC.
The philosophy was taken a serious threat when companies started circulating proprietary code and forcing you to use their software to access even a simple page.
Now that internet related code has expanded to include new technologies and all kinds of ways to create a web site I find it pretty sad to go back to the "use my software or else" attitude.
I don't want people, especially companies to force me to use their stuff "just because". I like having the freedom to choose and freedom is what the Internet is all about.

Think about it in a different way:
One accesses your home page from another's computer like in an office, kiosk, internet cafe or family member. That computer does not have any extra code installed, just a browser. The person cannot download java or flash or anything.
Why prevent the person from viewing your website, just because it displays just fine in your souped-up desktop PC?
The WWW should be able to be viewed by any browser, that's what's there for.

arigram said:

Think about it in a different way:
One accesses your home page from another's computer like in an office, kiosk, internet cafe or family member. That computer does not have any extra code installed, just a browser. The person cannot download java or flash or anything.
Why prevent the person from viewing your website, just because it displays just fine in your souped-up desktop PC?
The WWW should be able to be viewed by any browser, that's what's there for.

Click to expand...

I have to agree, with Edz and Arigram here, my wife does all of our websites for our customers and they are very successful and the companies she does them for Make money!

When designing a website, you have to really define 'Why?' am I doing this website, if the reason is for profit and selling, then the path of least resistance should be the major goal, make your product available to the maximum amount of viewers with the least amount of trouble, the majority of my surfing on the net is on an older OS with an older Laptop, with a smaller hardrive and low memory, I have no desire to install major new componants or software to do what I need to do on the internet, I feel, that if you are asking your customer to install software or upgrade OS, then the price of your product has just increased in the time it takes, or the software/hardware, that may have to be purchased, hence your pricing becomes less competitive based on the extra time taking out of that consumers time.

In other words asking me as your customer to install something, or upgrade something to see what your offering, just takes you out of the choices I have when making the buying choice.

Dave Parker
Satin Snow Ground Glass

Early Riser said:

Edz, if you have chosen to use technology that it not compatible with the vast majority of web software/technology out there ( Wintel, Mac, Linux)

Click to expand...

They don't run on Linux either? You mean a 32-bit Linux running on an Intel Pentium chipset. MS-Windows? Mac? Is that the world. What one that line from the "Producers".:
"Don't be stupid; be a smarty
Come and join the Nazi Party."
The argument is that my technology is "not compatible" with technologies that some have elected to use that are not compatible with IETF/W3C Standards.
I use the technology I have because it works well. With racks and racks of servers, many 100s of domains and some relatively high traffic government, corporate and educational sites (including one that gets all the traffic from many Neo-Nazi domains that the German government siezed) we don't have the manpower to play around with toys built using half-baked and vulnerable systems from Redmond--- which they too don't tend to use.

maybe you shouldn't complain about your inability to download and use widely available drivers or access a large proportion of web sites.

Click to expand...

Web sites want people to visit them. I don't need to read their ad-copy. Its those that have been ill-advised to use Flash or other proprietary technologies in their ill-designed webs that must complain . They just don't know any better. Its unfortunately quite expensive for companies to correct their "past mistakes" and more often than not go from one impostor to the next. Many so-called "new media agencies" like to push Flash since they can't do much else--- lacking experience and programming abilities and skills.

BTW there are photographers posting on this forum, Im just one of many. So when you say,"There are hardly any photographers here." you're wrong.

Click to expand...

Its a question of "what's a photographer". If you mean someone who owns a camera then we're all photographers. If you mean someone who earns their living by making and selling photographs--- in Germany, for that matter, with a masters certificate from the guild--- then I suspect that there are fewer than few here.

To Flash or not to Flash is a personal decision both for the developer and the viewer. I have done projects where businesses have needed to transfer information in various media forms and interactively collect and exchange information over the internet. Flash fulfills certain needs uniquely well.

If you only wish to accept ascii text from your modem, that's fine. If you you only want to see basic HTML, that's good too. It's your choice. If you have, or want, information that can only be related through a program like Flash, then what the h3ll, use Flash.
------
Oh oh, My lights are dimming in this storm so I'd better hit the submit button. I have a feeling that I'll only be accepting content that can be transferred by semaphore for the next several hours.
'Night friends

edz said:

Web sites want people to visit them. I don't need to read their ad-copy. Its those that have been ill-advised to use Flash or other proprietary technologies in their ill-designed webs that must complain . They just don't know any better. Its unfortunately quite expensive for companies to correct their "past mistakes" and more often than not go from one impostor to the next. Many so-called "new media agencies" like to push Flash since they can't do much else--- lacking experience and programming abilities and skills.

Click to expand...

The web designers that I know and have worked with are familiar with ALL of the available web site design softwares, not just Flash. Flash is one of the harder softwares to use. Designers don't use it because it's easier and they lack the skills to do any better. Granted there are bad designers out there, I just would never use one.

I have had no complaints about my website using flash prior to the one posted by Edz. Even when my web site has been reviewed in magazines, there was never a complaint about flash. I get a few thousand visitors a month.and no problems. Everyone is free to use whatever they want for their web sites. The vast majority of people on the net use Wintel, Mac or linux. If the small minority who use more esoteric systems can't access my site, well, I'll just have to live without their audience. Then again my work is available on other web sites and some of those are not Flash, so i guess I'm covered anyway.

As for the democracy of the internet, and it being accessible to all, the fact is that it is not available to all, it is only available to those who own a computer, a browser and have a phone line and modem or broad band. The fact is that the internet is already segregating a large portion of the worlds population. My use of Flash contributes little to this.

edz said:

Its a question of "what's a photographer". If you mean someone who owns a camera then we're all photographers. If you mean someone who earns their living by making and selling photographs--- in Germany, for that matter, with a masters certificate from the guild--- then I suspect that there are fewer than few here.

Click to expand...

I have made my sole living with a camera for 30 years. However I can not use that criteria for everyone. Personally I consider the term photographer to be a professional title, however i am realistic enough to know that the term is commonly used to include serious hobbyists and amateurs. In this forum there are more than a few professional photographers.

Early Riser said:

The web designers that I know and have worked with are familiar with ALL of the available web site design softwares,

Click to expand...

Gosh, golly. Real Tzadiks. ALL available software. I'm truly impressed. Chapeau!

not just Flash. Flash is one of the harder softwares to use.

Click to expand...

They also say that blondes can't drive and chew gum at the same time.

Designers don't use it because it's easier and they lack the skills to do any better.

Click to expand...

I suspect you are confusing "development" with so-called design.

This really reminds me of an interview for a secretary back in the late 1980s. She was asked what word processing software she tended to use and she answered "I have a master knowledge of all the word processors". We had a good laugh and needless to say she did not get the job.

The claim even to know of all software--- we are not even talking about using or even mastering--- in these kinds of horizonal applications is a sure giveaway to a very limited knowledge. One might know what one knows but its hardly what there is to know.

The pictorial photographic film, paper and chemicals market is, by contrast, very limited (we can indeed draw up a list of most all vendors available to our markets, excluding OEM). Can you imagine someone claiming to have used all films, papers and commercial chemistries? In a well stocked German photo shop there are probably at least 25 different 120 B&W rollfilms to be had and that's hardly "ALL".

At the top of my head I can think of well beyond 100 commercial, heavily marketed, mainline content management systems for "generic" web site development with international sales and support and some major key corporate references. I can think of no less (at the top of my head) 20 web-out-of-the-box packages and and and.. And I don't even care to know what's available. There are multimedia, animation, graphics etc. etc. packages. Its a very large market.

I don't even know-of a fraction of all the packages on the market, but to have worked with them ALL. Wow. truly amazing.

Even taking some of the currently most popular systems: to have even installed them is a significant task.

Granted there are bad designers out there, I just would never use one.

Click to expand...

Design is just one component of web development. Being a competent designer does not mean one is a good developer. Few if any are. Its a really different skill mix. Its the difference between being an interior designer, cabinet maker, architect, civil or structural engineer. And that's a bit of the source of the problem. Each have their roles but in today's web services we see "interior designers" selling themselves as full service construction companies. 5 years after the collapse of the big balloon the market is still overrun and customers still can't tell the difference, until often, at the earliest, after the fact. Blind leading blind.

How do YOU know what's good and what's "bad"?

I have had no complaints about my website using flash prior to the one posted by Edz.

Click to expand...

I did not complain about your site I just commented that I could not see anything--- and only because in this thread someone asked for advice about flash. Not motivated to look at your site I would not be motivated enough to complain. Might be a nice site but its all in "Chinese" and despite its widespread popularity I can't read Chinese.

Even when my web site has been reviewed in magazines, there was never a complaint about flash. I get a few thousand visitors a month.and no problems.

Click to expand...

Web traffic tends to not be connected with design but with content. I have many pages that have no design and have been unchanged since the 1990s that continue to get 1000s of hits a day. Attractive packaging is nice but its what's in the box that gets people to return.

Another matter to consider is bandwidth and speeds.
For example here in Greece the vast majority has no internet access at home. Those who do have mostly 56K modems. The few have ISDN lines. It is rare to find one with an ADSL 384k line. Internet here is very expensive and very problematic due to the monopoly of the public phone company.
Imagine how difficult is for someone to peruse around a photographer's site filled with thumbnails of their photos with such a slow internet access. Now imagine if you request to download a whole front end before they take a peek at your photos.

I don't know about you but I am having a web site made and I would like all to be able to see my photos, especially those who are computer illiterate, have slow internet connections, can't install extra software due to constraints and are situated half the world away which makes it even slower.
I also want to be able to access my own web site from any computer in case I am travelling for example.
Plus it would be easier to maintain, upgrade or revamp it.
Sure, flash is flashy, but I don't even use flash when taking photos...

But then its just me.
You could have well allready pinned down your audience which lives in your country, has high speed broadband connection, has the hardware/software combo you use, is computer literate enough to install plugins and has the patience to go through your front end to reach your photos.
Nothing wrong with carving out a small portion of an audience.
That's focused advertising.

Ed you have no knowledge of me or my background, or those of the people I have worked with, yet you seem to have no problem making blind assumptions about me.

As for your web site, for all your talk about web design and development, accessibility etc, your web site reflects none of them. I have tried to access your site only to come to a site that consists of only one page that I can access, with not much more than the name of your company, a search feature that does not work, no graphics at all, zero, at least not any that will load or appear, just a few lines of type, and a complete and total lack of any design aesthetics. Who knows maybe your web site isn't compatible with my Windows/ intel computer. From your web site I can not determine what you do, sell or produce.

As our web sites are the most obvious, and fleshed out examples of our web design philosophies, people are free to compare my web site and yours and then decide the merits of our arguments. After all talk is easy, actually producing something that succeeds can be far more difficult.

As for me, this discussion holds little value and I have said my piece, I wish you well.

Early Riser said:

Ed you have no knowledge of me or my background, or those of the people I have worked with, yet you seem to have no problem making blind assumptions about me.

Click to expand...

I would have to say, this statement probably pertains to both sides of this aurgument!

Dave

PS. when this all started, Eric did kind of post in a manner, that would suggest in a round about way, he was soliciting feedback.

arigram said:

Another matter to consider is bandwidth and speeds.
For example here in Greece the vast majority has no internet access at home. Those who do have mostly 56K modems..

Click to expand...

Even educational institutions there don't have terribly high bandwidth by Western European or Scandanavian standards. I'm mainly connected up with the other side of the island but even MaiCh (Chania) has only 512K leased line for the whole campus. Hosting and bankwidth charges are naturally very high--- and so we've interestingly come to host some Cretan companies here in Germany (it seems we charge for a year what Forthnet are said to charge for a month).

Crete is, in the "big picture", well connected. Heraklion and Chania are relatively international with a long historical tradition of trade. By mediterranean/middle-east/maghreb standards the quality of Internet is a dream--- and I won't even touch upon information politics and control in some of these other countries. 512K for an institute, however, does not lend itself well to multiple MB transfers just to read the first page..

On the other hand.. even in the US.. it seems most people are still by German, Dutch or Scandanavian standards poorly connected.

Early Riser said:

Ed you have no knowledge of me or my background, or those of the people I have worked with, yet you seem to have no problem making blind assumptions about me.

Click to expand...

I've made no assumption about you.

As for your web site, for all your talk about web design and development, accessibility etc, your web site reflects none of them. I have tried to access your site only to come to a site that consists of only one page that I can access, with not much more than the name of your company, a search feature that does not work, no graphics at all, zero, at least not any that will load or appear, just a few lines of type, and a complete and total lack of any design aesthetics. Who knows maybe your web site isn't compatible with my Windows/ intel computer. From your web site I can not determine what you do, sell or produce.

Click to expand...

Don't know why you had any problems but our own Web/Webs are part of an intentional joke going against current aesthetics. In one of our webs I sometimes get mails from people **demanding** that I update a page since they are 10 years old. My standard remark is "The page has been good for 10 years so what's the problem about leaving it there for another 10".


You may not like the NONMONOTONIC.NET Web but I don't see why the search did not work for you.

From your web site I can not determine what you do, sell or produce.

Click to expand...

You're not alone. Hardly any of our customers (including those we have worked with for over a decade don't really know all what we do, sell or produce). To be honest we're too not quite sure what we "sell". My company is a kind of playground exporing different ideas. On the way we've done a lot of projects for governments across the planet, been active in promoting information cooperation, building shops (spanning the spectrum from art galleries to an office shop with many 100s of 1000s of items) and corporate intranets and redefining organisational structures... developed some core technologies (like our search engine which has found its way into all kinds of applications from government information, multimedia to genetic sequence management) and sponsoring all kinds of art, political and ... In a few words "we do what we do"... and we have fun... Ride bicycles to business meetings--- to meet managers landing by heilicoper. And we have fun.. And are very good at what we do.

I don't know a single company on the planet even 10 times our size that has even 1/10 the list of references we have. As I said.. we are very good at what we do.

As our web sites are the most obvious, and fleshed out examples of our web design philosophies,

Click to expand...

Maybe yours but never ours. We don't have the time or desire to spend too much time with our own webs. A lot of what we do is about large scales of information. Others have the information.

people are free to compare my web site and yours and then decide the merits of our arguments. After all talk is easy, actually producing something that succeeds can be far more difficult.

Click to expand...

Our own webs have little to do with the webs that we deliver our customers, for example (as an extreme from nonmonotonic) http://www.fujitsu.de/ or
Dead Link Removed (or for that matter any of the Fujitsu intranet things we have all done).

To be honest, we we tend to not even care for design.. and put our stuff behind the scenes--- its function and content and not aesthetics. Most of our corporate accounts have style guides that restrict the kinds of variations possible or they have a set of aesthetics one needs to meet. Some years ago I used to write articles for fun in a bunch of German magazines and newpapers--- it was my phase of "instead of yelling at Hyde Park get paid to have it published". If the article was intended for Focus, Handlesblat, FAZ or any of a number of computer and culture magazines it took the style of the readership, as a cameleon, into its own internalised style. The message was "my message" but the packaging and language was always tuned to our sense of the tastes of the editors--- whose job, in turn, was to assure that things meet the tastes of their readers.

In our own webs we don't want to meet anyone's tastes but make it quickly clear that if your looking for talking heads in gray suits.. keep looking..

And speaking of Flash.. We've actually made a bit of money being contracted by some of the leading ad agencies in Germany... to have us remove the flash and covert things over to HTML.. So I guess Flash has sometimes been good for something..

I see Edward you are very well informed of what goes around here. You actually surprised me as I did not know that the university in Chania has such a small bandwidth. I would have imagined T3 or atleast T1.
Crete was the first place to connect to the Internet in Greece because of the University of Crete that resides in Iraklion and specialises in information technology and general technological innovations.
I remember way before anyone in Greece could connect to the internet at home, I had access because my uncle was the dean of the university and let me use his account.
Back then of course you had to learn unix to do anything and the web hardly existed. Gopher, ftp, telnet and usegroups was all I used.

Even now we only have a 384k ADSL line at the newspaper and I rarely see speeds faster than 15ks. Very often the line crawls at single digits and some times even decimals...

I have instinctively learned to ignore slow sites unless they really have something I crave. When I see flash I always select html if there is an option. If there is not, I don't go in.

I have little bandwidth and time to waste for people's flashing circuses.

NONMONOTONIC.NET works fine for me: typed in "why" - got 6 results; typed in "why not" got 16... About the right ratio I would have thought... Where's the problem???


Cheers, Bob.

Search [OFFTOPIC]

Bob F. said:

NONMONOTONIC.NET works fine for me: typed in "why" - got 6 results; typed in "why not" got 16... About the right ratio I would have thought... Where's the problem???

Click to expand...

If you want to see the engine do someone "more usefull" from the prespective of this site then:
Dead Link Removed (its an archive of the old pure-silver list)