Wavy scratches on base side of Ilford HP5+ 120

nevsky187 · Sep 30, 2013

I developed a roll of 120 HP5+ only to see, to my horror, a number of small, wavy scratches on the base side of the film. As this is the side of the film which is protected by the backing paper, it's clearly not the camera. Also, I shot different brands of film before and after this roll; no scratches on those. I've seen references to this on other forums and in other forum posts here. This is clearly Ilford's problem. They are NOT drying marks. What the heck, Ilford?

Regular Rod · Oct 1, 2013

Have you used a squeegee or maybe your fingers to squeegee the film before hanging it up to dry?

RR

nevsky187 · Oct 1, 2013

Again, this is not a drying issue. I did not squeegee the film. If I had, the scratches would have been straight lines, and not very regular scratches in ascending and descending waves of exactly the same radius across the entire length of the film. They are too regular to have been made in any way but as part of a mechanical process of some kind. Another user of the same film noticed the same issue and reported it here, and Ilford denied that it was a manufacturing issue in that case, but it MUST BE a manufacturing issue.

railwayman3 · Oct 1, 2013

nevsky187 said:
Ilford denied that it was a manufacturing issue in that case, but it MUST BE a manufacturing issue.

The film is handled by the user during loading into the tank reel, so I don't think it's necessarily a manufacturing issue ? I've scratched film myself when I first started to process my own, particularly when struggling with stainless steel reels! Still have the very occasional film which gives trouble, for no apparent reason.

AgX · Oct 1, 2013

railwayman3 said:
The film is handled by the user during loading into the tank reel, so I don't think it's necessarily a manufacturing issue ?

But can you imagine a user's fault to produce a regular pattern as described?

nevsky187 · Oct 1, 2013

This is the exact same issue, same scratches, being reported across Ilford's entire product line as of about a month ago:

http://www.largeformatphotography.i...d-help-with-film-issue-(consistent-scratches)

railwayman3 · Oct 1, 2013

AgX said:
But can you imagine a user's fault to produce a regular pattern as described?

Possibly, if the film were removed from the backing paper and somehow pulled tightly in a roll, or rubbed over the edge of a rough surface during loading onto the spiral. Or even when removing from the spiral after processing. I have had very similar "user faults" when I first tried to process my own films many years ago.

It is often possible to see tiny scratches on any smooth or polished surface by reflected light which otherwise give no problems (e.g. cleaning scratches on lens surfaces which have no effect on transmitted light). I have handling scratches on quite a few of my older negatives, even after I'd realised the need for more care. Particularly when I used to store films in a roll.

Not suggesting that it is the OP's fault, but it seems harsh to find the manufacturer guilty without giving them the chance to examine the evidence.

MattKing · Oct 1, 2013

nevsky187 said:
This is the exact same issue, same scratches, being reported across Ilford's entire product line as of about a month ago:

http://www.largeformatphotography.i...d-help-with-film-issue-(consistent-scratches)

And according to that thread, they don't show up in either prints or scans.

But I've absolutely no doubt that Ilford/Harman want to know about this, so I would strongly suggest you contact them directly. I suggest you PM Simon R. Galley here on APUG - he will be glad you did.

Sometimes he takes a day or so to get back to people, but he always does.

snay1345 · Oct 18, 2013

I was the guy who posted about it on the large format forum. I have since bought other packs of film and have not had the same wavy lines.

AgX · Nov 17, 2013

I assume Ilford Photo meanwhile got to see that films.

Is there any update on this matter?

pentaxuser · Nov 17, 2013

nevsky187 said:
This is the exact same issue, same scratches, being reported across Ilford's entire product line as of about a month ago:

http://www.largeformatphotography.i...d-help-with-film-issue-(consistent-scratches)

Like AgX has said an update would be helpful. I don't recall seeing any complaints here on APUG at the time and if you look at the LF posts then it seems quite a stretch to claim it is across the whole range of Ilford films and by implication a lot of users are affected. If this were to have been the case then I'd have expected a lot of complaints both here and on another U.K. forum I am a member of

It just seems rather strange that we have heard no more.

So OP what was the outcome?

pentaxuser

pirx70 · Nov 18, 2013

Hello,
I am another affected user. Bought 24 pcs 120 film last year, and another 20 in May - on each single developed roll the wavy "micro-crack" pattern in the film surface is present. I haven't seen it in prints. My primary concern now would be how this might develop during the long-term storage of developed negatives.
Cheers
Przemek

AgX · Nov 18, 2013

Is that a sinosoidal pattern?

pentaxuser · Nov 18, 2013

pirx70 said:
Hello,
I am another affected user. Bought 24 pcs 120 film last year, and another 20 in May - on each single developed roll the wavy "micro-crack" pattern in the film surface is present. I haven't seen it in prints. My primary concern now would be how this might develop during the long-term storage of developed negatives.
Cheers
Przemek

If you have a concern I'd contact Ilford. Even if these micro-crack patterns don't affect prints I am sure that Ilford will be concerned to determine if it is an Ilford fault.

You deserve an investigation and Ilford deserve the chance to do one.It can't do anything unless it is told

pentaxuser

AgX · Nov 18, 2013

We are already on their forum, so no reason to expect them not to know.

Thomas Bertilsson · Nov 18, 2013

I have some Delta 400 from 2011 that shows the same thing. It doesn't make a difference in the prints, however, so I don't worry about it.

pentaxuser · Nov 19, 2013

AgX said:
We are already on their forum, so no reason to expect them not to know.

Can you explain? Thanks

pentaxuser

AgX · Nov 19, 2013

I meant that I expect someone from Ilford Photo (if not Simon himself) to glance through this/their Ilford forum on a regular base. So they should know about these reports and if interested are able to contact our complaining fellows by themselves to gain further information or samples.

pentaxuser · Nov 19, 2013

Thanks AgX. I am not sure APUG is in fact Ilford's forum despite Simon's helpful presence here but I do think that it is not his responsibility to pick up every problem that someone asserts is an Ilford product problem.

Just my opinion of course

pentaxuser

MattKing · Nov 19, 2013

This (sub)forum is the Ilford/Harman sub-forum in the Partners' forum on APUG.

So yes, this is Ilford's (sub)forum here.

Sal Santamaura · Nov 19, 2013

pentaxuser said:
...I am not sure APUG is in fact Ilford's forum despite Simon's helpful presence here...

You are a victim of the confusing terminology used in vBulletin that describes categories as "forums." I suspect AgX was referring to this category/forum, which is titled as follows,

Forum: [Partner] ILFORD PHOTO

rather than all of APUG.

pentaxuser said:
...I do think that it is not his responsibility to pick up every problem that someone asserts is an Ilford product problem...

I don't know whether it's in his job description or not, but he sure seems to make it his responsibility.

AgX · Nov 19, 2013

Yes Sal, I refered to this "Partner Forum". And yes, the Apug terminology can be confusing.

Simon R Galley · Nov 20, 2013

Dear All,

I have seen this....and once again I have checked with Technical Service, we have no complaints AT ALL recorded regarding this issue, but we did have this discussed last year when we had one last year
and examined the film.

I have asked Technical service to give me a possible cause and I will post it in due course.

As part of our QC procedures we process and expose and process on average 400 to 600 film samples per week, we have NEVER seen this issue....ever on our samples.

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited

pdeeh · Nov 20, 2013

It is most peculiar that so often people will complain on forums about alleged film faults, yet will never send the evidence to the manufacturer for analysis.

pirx70 · Nov 20, 2013

Dear Simon,

I will most gladly send you the sample. Could you just give me a hint how to go about it and what information you need?

Bests
Przemek

Wavy scratches on base side of Ilford HP5+ 120

nevsky187

Regular Rod

nevsky187

railwayman3

AgX

nevsky187

railwayman3

MattKing

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snay1345

AgX

pentaxuser

pirx70

AgX

pentaxuser

AgX

Thomas Bertilsson

pentaxuser

AgX

pentaxuser

MattKing

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Sal Santamaura

AgX

Simon R Galley

pdeeh

pirx70

Wavy scratches on base side of Ilford HP5+ 120

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