Water stains on negs for the first time

gone · Jul 27, 2021

I'm having issues w/ water stains on film and RC papers that I never had before. The papers aren't that big a deal, it usually ends up being 1-2 prints out of 10 that need to be rewashed, which is easy. However, the film is still getting marks on it. In the past I always used Photo-Flo, but ever since going to the less expensive Arista Flow the stains have been an on again, off again issue.

Before buying more Photo-Flo, this time I used distilled water for the developer, fix, and final rinse w/ the Arista product. That resulted in less marks and they're not as bad as before, but they're still there in one area, then it skips about 10 frames and there's a few more. Any ideas on this? I was confident that the distilled water would work, now I'm wondering if it's actually the Arista Flow that's the problem.

laingsoft · Jul 27, 2021

Are you following the directions on the label? The Arista stuff might be less concentrated. Under a certain concentration the surfactant just won't be strong enough to bead the water properly.

bdial · Jul 27, 2021

I have only ever used photo-flo, it is pretty sensitive to dilution levels, and I assume that is likely true for all photographic wetting agents.
In my experience too much is a bigger hazard than not enough. Also, when mixing it in distilled more dilution than Kodak’s recommendation works better for me.

gone · Jul 28, 2021

Thanks. I did read the directions on the bottle, and mixed it 1:200 as it says, which is quite a bit more than I ever used w/ Photo-Flo, which was just a few drops. FWIW, I've been having this issue for a while, and have tried diluting the Arista product less, and more, w/ no change other than you get sudsy bubbles if it's not diluted enough. I can't figure it out, and suspect I may have to buy some Photo-Flo and see if that fixes things.

MattKing · Jul 28, 2021

You may wish to try this approach to see if it helps: https://www.photrio.com/forum/resources/making-and-using-a-kodak-photo-flo-stock-solution.396/

gone · Jul 28, 2021

That's an interesting article Matt. I got lazy a few times w/ this, and rather than rewashing all the negs, just lightly sprayed the individual frames that had water marks on them w/ my eyeglass cleaner, which is probably mostly alcohol. It worked very well. I have several rolls to develop, so since I don't have any Photo-Flo (yet), I'll add a touch of alcohol in the Arista wetting agent and see what happens. That just may fix it.

MattKing · Jul 28, 2021

The dilution I mention is good, because it combines the advantages of a relatively small amount of alcohol in the final, working solution with a sufficiently large amount of alcohol in the stock solution to keep the nasties from growing.
And it is a lot easier to end up with the target final dilution with a good degree of consistency and repeatability.

mshchem · Jul 28, 2021

One other product is Edwal LFN, 1 or 2 drops in 500mL. It's 10-15 dollars for a 22ml eyedropper bottle full. The little bottle is handy, goes a very long way.

pentaxuser · Jul 28, 2021

How bad are the water stains on your paper which so far no-one seems to have addressed. The posts look as if they all centre on the more common issue of water spots on film.I think this is the first time I have seen of anyone having a problem with paper. I use a Paterson squeegee on paper and it normally wipes all semblance of water drops off then in the old days I had a Paterson upright paper racks so any remaining which was almost non existent thanks to the squeegee just dried in ambient room temperature. I now have air blown set of horizontal racks which may be more convenient to use but frankly probably do no better a job than did the Paterson racks

In my case I live in one of the hardest water areas in the U.K. Kettles, washing machine, coffee makers etc and even the spouts of taps need regular descaling

pentaxuser

Pat Erson · Jul 28, 2021

Ilfotol will make your life easier as it's basically bulletproof. My water is so hard I have to use distilled water for my D-76 but I use tap water for my final rinse before I hang my negs.
Ilfotol is that good.

Patrick Robert James · Jul 28, 2021

I gave up on PhotoFlo a couple decades ago. The stuff is evil if you ask me... I used to use Edwal LFN and distilled water. That always worked. These days though I just gently wipe the non emulsion side of negs with a Kimwipe after hanging them up to dry. Perfect every time.

If you are getting water spots on RC prints then you just need to get yourself a squeegee. You don't need one of those hard "photo" squeegees that seem to be ubiquitous in darkrooms. The best one I have found is one I picked up at Target.

Hope that helps.

gone · Jul 28, 2021

No stains on the new negs. Thanks for the tips everyone.

As Matt suggested, I mixed in a little bit of rubbing alcohol w/ the Arista Flow on the final rinse, and also strained everything thru coffee filters beforehand. Using distilled water for the developer and fixer probably wasn't necessary so I skipped that this time, but did use it on the final rinse w/ the wetting agent.

Now to put the negs in the enlarger later this week and see if I can keep the water marks off the RC prints. Those have been really aggravating. Might have to go the squeegee route on them.

pentaxuser · Jul 29, 2021

momus said:
No stains on the new negs. Thanks for the tips everyone.

Now to put the negs in the enlarger later this week and see if I can keep the water marks off the RC prints. Those have been really aggravating. Might have to go the squeegee route on them.

Let us know how the squeegee route goes? With RC paper( I can't speak for FB as I don't use it) I found that as long as the blades are clean and not hardened with age and cracks I could use a couple of fairly hard passes with the blades squeezed quite tightly on the surface of the paper such that no visible surface water remained and certainly not in the form of droplets

pentaxuser

removed account4 · Jul 29, 2021

never had these problems, sorry for your hard times.
how are you using your wetting agent, are you just putting it in the tank and letting the bubbles run down the film
when you hang it up ? I've heard that can give water marks. back in the day I was taught a really hard core way
for roll film, I've only used PF a couple drops in the tank, then I run the reels up and down about 4 times
then wack the side of the tank to get rid of the bubbles, then run water barely into the tank so the head of
bubbles vanishes, just tap water, never issues in like 4 maybe 5 different waters..

Patrick Robert James said:
If you are getting water spots on RC prints then you just need to get yourself a squeegee. You don't need one of those hard "photo" squeegees that seem to be ubiquitous in darkrooms. The best one I have found is one I picked up at Target.

+1
I didn't get mine at Targé but I went to the auto parts store and got the best squeegee of all, a windshield wiper. its lasted 40 years

Saganich · Jul 29, 2021

I replaced photoflo by doing the following: After washing hang film to dry and use a squeeze bottle (with a thin stream) to run a bead of distilled or deionized water from top to bottom of both sides of the film. Use a tray underneath to catch runoff. Never had a problem after that with spots or foamy tanks etc. During the past year I couldn't get distilled or DI water so I used the same method with half-strength photoflo. All is working ok, but still wary of that photoflo. My conclusion is to keep photoflo out of your tanks.

Paul Howell · Jul 29, 2021

And I thought we had hard water, just leaving letting a glass of water evaporate will leave white deposits, which is why I use distilled water and photo flo for film, but never had spots on prints. When I lived in Italy my house was a block from the Adriatic and the city water was just one step from salt water, non portable, I had to rinse my prints in bottled water.

Maris · Jul 29, 2021

I used to get the occasional drying mark but couldn't figure out why until I actually watched film dry after the wetting agent step. Watching film dry is, er, tedious but I noted that a drying mark formed every place a foam berg or liquid drop stopped moving down the film and then dried where it stopped. So I changed my technique.

Now I hang film initially as wet as possible to speed up liquid flow and I hang that film edge-on at a 45 degree angle, not vertical. The foam and liquid drops now only have to get across the film,and run along its bottom edge not down the full length face of the film. And if a drying mark should form it's on the edge of the film where there is no image.

Sirius Glass · Jul 30, 2021

Maris said:
I used to get the occasional drying mark but couldn't figure out why until I actually watched film dry after the wetting agent step. Watching film dry is, er, tedious but I noted that a drying mark formed every place a foam berg or liquid drop stopped moving down the film and then dried where it stopped. So I changed my technique.

Now I hang film initially as wet as possible to speed up liquid flow and I hang that film edge-on at a 45 degree angle, not vertical. The foam and liquid drops now only have to get across the film,and run along its bottom edge not down the full length face of the film. And if a drying mark should form it's on the edge of the film where there is no image.

Also blot the lowest corner with a paper towel to draw off the water after hanging.

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