Water marks, scratches, handling problem?

Hi all,

I have been developing film for a while, about two years now and everything has been ok, I try to improve all the time. I am currently helpless, because I cannot understand why I am suddenly so bad at negative handling, so I am trying to figure out what I am doing wrong and I hope you can give me some feedback and share your experience.
I have water marks I cannot clean effectively even with alcohol and shiny side of the film that scratches very very easily, even when I just insert the negatives in the folders. I recently started using some wetting agent (Mirasol) and I never squeege the film or touch it at all when wet. Still...run out of thoughts on what can I do better. My question is: can wetting agent 1+400 be the cause of stronger, more stubborn marks when the film is drying?. I did some search here on APUG and found many different opinions, but I´d like to have some input as how did you reach a good, clean framework to get spotless negatives.
I don´t know about you, but I find these problems the most frustrating part of film photography.

Appreciating your help and patience with beaten subjects.

Mauro

mauro35 said:

I have been developing film for a while, about two years now and everything has been ok ...

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What exactly was changed since last ok development? Film, developer, place of residence (water, dust), camera, temperature ...?

Mauro: at least you are considering the drying aspect to be part of the whole process, and not a mere afterthought. That matters.

Do this: after washing, dip the film briefly into clean water with wetting agent. The AMOUNT of wetting agent should be such that you do not get a lot of bubbles when you agitate the solution. ONLY enough to cause a few bubbles in the solution is correct. Then, remove the film and let it drip for about ten seconds so that most of the liquid is removed.

Now becomes the important part. Hang the film in a clean environment. Take an immaculate, damp sponge and slowly wipe, from top downward, the shiny (non-emulsion) side of the film so that NO drops of liquid remain on that shiny side. Do this carefully and completely. Let the emulsion side remain damp and make certain that no dust is able to cling to it (hence, the environment). (If you have used too much wetting agent you just might get drying marks on that emulsion.) Clip a light weight to the bottom of the film and leave it to dry, without introducing air (which can import dust). Dust clinging to the emulsion side will implant such dust and render that dust difficult to remove.

The scratches can emanate from sources before or after exposure. This is a more tricky problem and you are going to have to be especially vigilant here. Do you bulk load? If so, you must be especially careful. Do you use a hardening fixer? Doing so will tend to prevent 'after process' scratches (although I am so careful that I find this unnecessary). Even the manufacturer might be at fault here (but that is the last possibility that I would pose). A tiny, tiny bit (not even visible to the naked eye) of petroleum jelly spread onto the shiny side of the negative might cover up those scratches but the important thing to remember is that you should not have scratches on your film in the first place. - David Lyga

Sorry to disagree David, but I would let the wetting agent do its job, do not sponge the film as it is not required.

What is the film? Some films scratch more easily than others. I use Kodak Rapid fixer, which has a hardener in it for the emulsion. That may help. When my film comes out of the photo-flo (mixed per Kodak's instructions), I whip it a couple of times, then hang it to dry. I also use only distilled water and pour my developer through a paper coffee filter w/ a few small, clean, smooth rocks inside to help w/ the pouring. Occasionally I will get a drying mark on one frame, but generally this scheme gives me clean negs every time. Film is Tri-X, developers are usually D76 or TD-16. I never touch the negs w/ anything after they come out of the photo-flo.

If your film is getting scratched just going into the negative sleeves, something is definitely wrong. The above regime works for me.

To be more specific, the only thing I changed recently in the process is the use of Tetenal Mirasol wetting agent 1+400, the rest has been the same. I had particularly hard time with Fuji Acros 100 and Fomapan 100, Tri-X seems to be more resistant to scratches, but I still get the water marks. I do not bulk load and actually I do not know if the fixer I use (Agfa AgFix) has hardener or not, does it? David, thank you for the input I will try to introduce the sponge in my processing routine. I definitely need to start doing something different.

Add one capful of 91% isopropyl alcohol to the wetting agent solution. Let the film soak for at least 30 seconds or more, then shake the excess water from the film while it is still in the reel. I use a different wetting agent, but this will help no matter which brand you choose.

dip the film briefly into clean water with wetting agent

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Clean Water = distilled or de-ionized water usually found in gallon (or 5-litre) jugs at hardware stores or supermarkets (for steam irons).

Take an immaculate, damp sponge and slowly wipe

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I did the sponge part (with a special photo sponge) for ~30 years; now I don't, and I get B/W films without drying marks and without scratches. One speck of grit survives the de-ionized water treatment => one lost frame. Same speck caught by sponge => all frames scratched. If despite this advice, you feel you must use a sponge, do it with the film hanging, so that the only tension is the weight of the bottom film clip.
Also, after lifting spiral from tank, and after un-spooling film from spiral, hold film in a near-horizontal orientation for ~30s. This allows water (and possible remaining "dirt") to take the short path to the film edge. Only then hang the film vertically, in a place without air drafts.
Wetting agent: not too much!

mauro35 said:

To be more specific, the only thing I changed recently in the process is the use of Tetenal Mirasol wetting agent 1+400, the rest has been the same. I had particularly hard time with Fuji Acros 100 and Fomapan 100, Tri-X seems to be more resistant to scratches, but I still get the water marks. I do not bulk load and actually I do not know if the fixer I use (Agfa AgFix) has hardener or not, does it? David, thank you for the input I will try to introduce the sponge in my processing routine. I definitely need to start doing something different.

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Change one step at a time.

Next steps: develop one film without wetting agent. Let us know the result.

I use Fomapan and Acros - this is not a problem for sure.

It seems we all have our own method. I use some old Johnson wetting agent that works OK, so this isn't relevant here - because you can't get it any more, although it seems to work fine. My method is take the film off the reel and then put it back in the tank with the first wetting agent dip. I then hang the film, using clips on each side of the film rather than one in the centre (as I find using a single clip causes a centre drip line that doesn't help), then I squirt/wash the film with some more water/wetting agent using one of those cheap squirty bottles they sell on flebay as "tattoo squeeze bottles". As I dry over my sink this is easy. I don't squeegee, and I find my film dries without water marks. Very, very occasionally I find a slight water mark on the shiny side which easily carefully wipes off perhaps with a little alcohol to help it.

mauro35 said:

Hi all,

I have been developing film for a while, about two years now and everything has been ok, I try to improve all the time. and shiny side of the film that scratches very very easily, even when I just insert the negatives in the folders.
Mauro

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Are you saying that some of the films are OK when dry but then scratch when being placed in the neg files?

If you check for scratches and there are none before placing the negs into the neg files and you are handling the negs by their edges only, then you have grit in the neg files.

Check each one before inserting the negs and try blowing any grit out of the neg files beforehand. Where and how are you storing the neg files? Usually neg files purchased new are clean on the inside and if stored closed and flat will not allow dirt and grit to get inside.

If the neg files are old and of the translucent paper type and are not stored flat then 1. it is difficult to see pieces of grit inside each sleeve and 2. they tend to open up at the entrance to each sleeve and allow dirt inside.

If it is a major problem I'd consider throwing out the files you have and buying fresh transparent files. Transparent files such as "Clearfiles" are more expensive than translucent but allow you to see the negatives clearly and to do contact sheets of all 36 frames on a 10x8 sheet without needing a Paterson contact sheet frame

A piece of sponge underneath the clearfile sleeve with the print paper on top and a piece of glass to hold it all down is all you need

pentaxuser

Well, I cannot say for sure if the scratches are caused by the files, but the negatives seem ok when dry and then when I take them out to print there they go, straight lines on some frames, or sometimes the whole strip. Maybe I get tiny dust particles on them while they dry and then they are dragged on the negatives when insterted in the files, or could it be some salt from the water that sticks on the film when it dries? I do use fresh transparent ones, but of course dust is always everywhere. For some reason I seem to be getting more scratches now than I used to and I wonder if I am becoming that clumsy in my operations or I just need to clean more.

The faucet water quality can vary a lot and still be poteable.

If you have drying marks soak the film in water for five minutes or so and hang up to dry again. Trying mechanical removal is way risky.

Some people use a lot more surfant than recommended.

Some use a store bought film squeegee.

Some use a final soak in distilled or deionized water.

I belong to the oodles of surfant and film squeegee no scratches so far...

Bob Carnie said:

Sorry to disagree David, but I would let the wetting agent do its job, do not sponge the film as it is not required.

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No, I'll hold my ground here (politely): The sponging from the shiny side mitigates water marks, especially if the water is hard (like it is in Philadelphia). - David Lyga

You can also try hanging to dry on a diagonal; this give a shorter path for water to run off instead of running down the entire length of the film.

mwdake said:

You can also try hanging to dry on a diagonal; this give a shorter path for water to run off instead of running down the entire length of the film.

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+1 to hanging the film on the diagonal.

I find that 2 - 3 drops of wetting agent per 300ml water, (in a Patterson tank), is enough. Just dip your clean thermometer in the concentrate wetting agent and
allow two drops to fall into the tank with the film soaking in it. Raise and lower the center column carrying the film reel several times to mix the wetting agent into
the rinse water. There should only be a few bubbles, there shouldn't be a layer of foam ala washing dishes in the sink.

I hang to dry in the shower cubicle. Run hot shower first for 2 mins to get steam up and then turn off tap and leave for 10-15 mins for steam to clear. You don't want
the steam condensing on your hanging film to add to the water already there. You have to be a little inventive to hang your film on a diagonal. I normally tie off
the clip on the lower end of the film to a shampoo bottle or something heavy that won't fall over with the tension of the film on it.

Are you certain the scratches are made during the processing? Perhaps they are caused by the camera. This winter I used a point and shoot camera in very cold weather and had scratches on the back side of Tri-x film. I believe that the cold weather was the cause. The Rollei Prego camera automatically advances the film between frames and then auto rewinds at the end of the roll. Not sure this was the cause?

Get a film dryer that dries film on the reels (usually SS). Clean shiny side w/a little Windex when dry.

Loren Sattler said:

Are you certain the scratches are made during the processing? Perhaps they are caused by the camera. This winter I used a point and shoot camera in very cold weather and had scratches on the back side of Tri-x film. I believe that the cold weather was the cause. The Rollei Prego camera automatically advances the film between frames and then auto rewinds at the end of the roll. Not sure this was the cause?

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yes any burr in the cameras pressure plate will scratch film if two films have the same longitudinal scratch it is the camera normally.

but drying marks are water quality if your kettle furs badly you are going to have real problems different from the people with softer water no point in listening to their process...

final soak in distilled water with lots of surfant
shake spiral dry before removing film
hang horizontally
film squeegee
resoak section with mark
etc.

ion exchange water softner may be necessary

Windex is a fine abrasive Id not suggests that

Thank you all very much! I see many ideas and that´s exactly what I was hoping for. I have now some points to consider to start changing my routine. I do not think camera is the problem for scratches as my films look fine after drying, except for the water marks. Considering what some of you say here I might have been using too much of the wetting agent too. Anyway, it´s time to be more meticulous and apply some of your methods to see if I manage to make a difference.
Appreciating your support!

I'll chime in here as well:

If you are not using distilled water with your wetting agent for the final rinse, and letting the film soak at least a couple of minutes, you are not removing minerals that might be present in your water. For those who process in hard water, a longer soak in distilled water at the end of the processing is crucial. If you water is hard (leaves calcium deposits in your sink, faucet, steam iron, film etc.) then used distilled water for your final step.

Thirty seconds is not enough to remove minerals from your film, soak for at least two; I usually soak longer.

Regarding squeegeeing/sponging. The risk here is scratches from rough squeegees or sponges or whatever. There is also a risk of contamination, especially with sponges. If your water is mineral-free and the wetting agent is adequate, you don't need to squeegee. That said, I have squeegeeing all my film between two clean fingers for more than 30 years and have never had a scratch. I did get some scratches long ago using a "film squeegee" on roll film. I stopped that right away. Fingers are very sensitive. If you are careful, you can avoid scratching; even feel if there are particulates on the film.

Best,

Doremus

I agree with those presented by David regarding the disposal of excess of the water from the film.
Remove excess of the liquid ( processing solution or water) is usually ussing on industrial machines of proccesing films.
For this you can use crossover devices or crossover devices with vacuum pump (after the final wash).
http://motion.kodak.com/motion/uplo..._en_motion_support_processing_h2415_h2415.pdf - pag. 8
Home you can use one of the methods that have been presented (sponge, squeegee).
Your skills and experience is very important for this task.
ersonally use wet chamois and I wipe both emulsion as well as support.

George

I just develop one roll changing my procedure, by including a final distilled water/alcohol bath and I did not used wetting agent. I got much cleaner negatives this time (no water marks) and I do not see scratches yet. Looks much better...now it´s time to test distilled water/wetting agent.

The what in your town may have become harder for some reason (problably for a short time) without you know and hard water scratch and leave marks on film.

mauro35 said:

I just develop one roll changing my procedure, by including a final distilled water/alcohol bath and I did not used wetting agent. I got much cleaner negatives this time (no water marks) and I do not see scratches yet. Looks much better...now it´s time to test distilled water/wetting agent.

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If the final bath was ok don't fix something that is not broken.

The only reason for using surfant is to speed up drying and to reduce droplet damage.

Our water quality can vary considerably and distilled water is not all the same...

So you always need to inspect the film carefully as it dries and as you cut it up and put it back in water if there are drying marks.

I used to use Windex to polish the cursor on my slide rule to remove scratches it is a fine abrasive well risky with film.