Water Evaporation Spots on Film

MattKing · Dec 3, 2023

GLS said:
Wouldn't this put weird stresses on the film though and encourage it to curl etc whilst drying?

No.
There is just enough tension to keep it from sagging.
And the modern film we use is designed to be able to withstand a lot more than this - particularly in commercial processors and high speed motor drives.
The old Kodachrome machines ran three miles of spliced together films through the machines at continuous high speed.
And current motion picture film processors do the same with Vision films and 5222 black and white film, which is extremely similar to still films on acetate base. The Estar based films are even more robust.

Sirius Glass · Dec 3, 2023

MattKing said:
Nope - 45 degrees works great with roll film - top attached to a clip near the top right of the shower stall, and bottom attached to a clip nearer to the left side of the shower stall

Would it work in the right side of the shower stall or only on the left?

Derek Lofgreen · Dec 3, 2023

GLS said:
After bulk washing with tap water, I do a penultimate wash in deionised water for 2 min. I then do a final brief wash in deionised water containing ~ 10% high purity IPA, which acts as a wetting agent and also speeds up the drying process. My negs are always pristine using this process.

Ian David said:
I second the recommendation to add a bit of IPA with the PhotoFlo for the final brief water rinse. I use no squeegees or wipes of any kind. After I hang my film up, there are no droplets or rivulets of water visible on either side of the surface of the film.

Okay, I know you guys aren't pouring perfectly good beer into your film wash... What is IPA?

Thanks,
D.

Ian David · Dec 3, 2023

Isopropyl alcohol. Just a good splash in my final rinse water. Helps avoid having to do gymnastics hanging rolls of film at odd angles in the shower

eli griggs · Dec 4, 2023

destroya said:
use distilled water with a drop or 2 of photoflo or its equivalent.

This is what I do and it works, air dry or with a small connection heater on.

MattKing · Dec 4, 2023

Sirius Glass said:
Would it work in the right side of the shower stall or only on the left?

Depends on where I've strung the line that the top hooks on to .

GLS · Dec 4, 2023

MattKing said:
No.
There is just enough tension to keep it from sagging.
And the modern film we use is designed to be able to withstand a lot more than this - particularly in commercial processors and high speed motor drives.
The old Kodachrome machines ran three miles of spliced together films through the machines at continuous high speed.
And current motion picture film processors do the same with Vision films and 5222 black and white film, which is extremely similar to still films on acetate base. The Estar based films are even more robust.

OK, good to know, thanks.

The IPA + deionised water method obviates the need to do this however, as it completely eliminates any possibility of residues from minerals or traditional wetting agents (Photo-Flo etc).

250swb · Dec 4, 2023

mtlc said:
Hello,

I've noticed some mineral deposits on my film from the occasional water drop that evaporates. Does anyone have any tips to prevent this? I'm using city tap water for the rinse. I use a drop of photo flow in the last rinse and a film squeegee but can't seem to get all of the water off of the film.

Thanks!

Not all wetting agents work equally with our individual domestic water supplies. So try another brand of wetting agent. Moving into a new home I had terrible problems with Fotospeed wetting agent and tried every idea to solve the problem with no effect. Only when the bottle was getting low did I buy Ilford's Ilfosol wetting agent and instantly the problems were gone.

guangong · Dec 4, 2023

koraks said:
You'll get many responses by people who all do this differently. Some will suggest to use a squeegee on your film, others will warn against it. Some will suggest using distilled water for the final wash, some will recommend a washing agent, some will....etc. etc. Consider all these suggestions as possibilities that you could use. In the end, it's about finding out what works for you. There is no single, best way to do this.

Having said that, my personal approach is to whip as much water from the film as possible while it's still on the reel by shaking it. Then hang the film up and gently wipe off the shiny side with clean paper tissue that I've folded over a couple of times. I don't touch the emulsion side as it's prone to scratching; the shiny side much less so. The paper tissue gets rid of all the droplets and the film dries without water spots.

With 120 roll film and sheet film I don't use a paper towel and just hang them up to dry like that. Since there's a gelatin anti-curl layer on the backside of those formats, the risk of water spots is much smaller and it's much easier to get muck on the film that won't remove.

35mm on the other hand has a perfectly smooth backside and any lint or fibers from a cloth or paper towel can easily be wiped off once the film is dry. Lint & fiber that gets stuck in the gelatin emulsion is generally more difficult to remove and it usually requires re-washing the film and mechanical removal (wiping, rubbing), which creates the risk of scratches. That's why it's a good idea to not touch the gelatin side. Of course, some will recommend the use of a squeegee, which counters this advice, and they'll also explain the caveats to the use of one. I myself have no good experiences with the use of a squeegee on film.

Ditto! Long ago I discovered that squeegees were a risky choice.

Richard Searle · Dec 4, 2023

I use tissues impregnated with IPA. The sort of things used in hospital or nail bars. They are available on eBay. Different sizes to suit your film type.

laingsoft · Dec 4, 2023

As everyone has said, you're likely making your photo flo too weak, so make sure you're following the instructions
.
If your city/tap water is really hard, you might want to try investing in a water filter or using DI water for a rinse. Personally I just have a carbon filter attached to my sink that I change out once a year or so.

I'm also a squeegee user, despite how it makes people gasp. I've only ever had issues with it on expired soviet film and some experimental emulsions, everything else seems to be hard enough that it won't scratch.

mtlc · Dec 6, 2023

Thanks everyone! I mixed it up at the recommended rate problem solved! Amazing what following the directions does!

Two23 · Dec 6, 2023

I do a final rinse with distilled water. Never had a problem.

Kent in SD

Helinophoto · Dec 7, 2023

I use filtered water (charcoal filter) as well as photo-flo and I still get these pesky residue on my film.
Only solution that works for me, is to toss the reel(s) into a salad-tosser and centrifuge the water off as much as humanly possible before hanging the film up to dry.
I avoid touching wet film at all costs, apart from the Kodak Vision-films, to take off the anti-halation backing (very soft, very wet paper).

QuisAmet · Dec 7, 2023

Regarding the use of a squeegee. Does anyone know why it's not recommended? I have been using the Paterson squeegee and have not noticed any problems..

Helinophoto · Dec 7, 2023

QuisAmet said:
Regarding the use of a squeegee. Does anyone know why it's not recommended? I have been using the Paterson squeegee and have not noticed any problems..

It is not recommended because if you trap something between the squeegee and the emulsion-side, you risk creating a irreparable streak all along the film/frames.
I did it a couple of times in the beginning, but stopped, once I saw my scans (may be less critical, perhaps, in an enlarging-context?)

Kino · Dec 7, 2023

QuisAmet said:
Regarding the use of a squeegee. Does anyone know why it's not recommended? I have been using the Paterson squeegee and have not noticed any problems..

Just run a search on "squeegee" in Photrio and you can read (Ad Nauseum) the arguments for and against using the device.

Just the term usually causes a thread to blow-up and run for endless pages pro and con.

logan2z · Dec 7, 2023

FWIW, this is the method that I settled on that eliminated drying marks/streaks on my film:

After washing using The Ilford Method with plain tap water, I remove the film reel (Jobo 1500 series) from the developing tank and immerse it in 32 oz of distilled water for 5 minutes. I then remove the reel and add 2 drops of LFN to the distilled water and mix thoroughly. Then I open the reel and dump the film roll into the LFN/water mixture and agitate for 1 minute. Finally, I remove the film roll, hang from film clips and use 4 Kimwipes (2 per side) to gently "squeegee" the water off both sides of the film. The film is then left to dry for about 24 hours.

The process is a bit involved but I'm left with no drying marks and it has never scratched my film.

I got the idea for the 5 minute soak in distilled water from an old post by @Doremus Scudder and the suggestion to squeegee with Kimwipes came from a post by @Huss, so credit to them for sharing their ideas.

GLS · Dec 7, 2023

Helinophoto said:
I use filtered water (charcoal filter) as well as photo-flo and I still get these pesky residue on my film.

Not surprising, as a charcoal filter will not remove most dissolved minerals.

Helinophoto · Dec 7, 2023

GLS said:
Not surprising, as a charcoal filter will not remove most dissolved minerals.

Really? What to use then?

Anon Ymous · Dec 7, 2023

Helinophoto said:
Really? What to use then?

Deionised water.

EDIT: Also have a look at this.

Doremus Scudder · Dec 7, 2023

Helinophoto said:
Really? What to use then?

Distilled water soak for the final rinse, along with your wetting agent. Leave the film soaking for a while. If your water is really hard, it can take five minutes or so to leach enough of the minerals out of the emulsion so you don't get residue. You can try shorter times if your water isn't that hard. Soak longer if you get residue.

Don't store wetting agent for more than a day or so; it grows bacterial slime rather quickly. I use it one session.

Best,

Doremus

Sirius Glass · Dec 7, 2023

mtlc said:
Thanks everyone! I mixed it up at the recommended rate problem solved! Amazing what following the directions does!

One of the gratifying things about participating in Photrio is to see problems being solved for people who need help and advice. So that thanks also goes to you for providing feedback.

eli griggs · Dec 7, 2023

Helinophoto said:
Really? What to use then?

Find out if your water is "hard or soft".

You may need to "condition" your water.

Use at least a three (3) part filtration system, starting with five (5) micron particles to remove the big stuff and two (2) or three(3) microns for particles for a clean up of debris and larger nasties.

Include an activated Charcoal filter for its benifit, but you can also take it a bit further and use a quality ceramic filter, thoroughly embedded with silver to kill some things that get through.

The charcoal and silver do not remove needed for portable water, salts from the water and there is no guarantee you'll stop everything, however, if you want to distill your own water, the water cleansed water at this point should be pretty clean, and salts will, like some remaining minerals, be separated out of the distilled water.

You 'might' need to add a smidge of salt back in, as, if you were able to perfectly distill water, the pure stuff is very corrosive, or so I've read, but I doubt you'll get that to final corrosive point.

I believe that photo flow is also a water conditioner, but the chemist here should give the final word on that.

Good luck and don't forget to use distilled water ice cubes to lower the final rinse temperature.

dokko · Dec 8, 2023

cliveh said:
I have said this many times on this subject and I can speak about processing film in several locations round the UK (I can't speak for other countries). After final wash in tap water, fill the tank with deionized water to cover the film. Agitate for about 10 seconds and hang to dry. No drying marks ever.

+100

I let it soak for a bit longer (about a minute) so that all the tap water gets washed out of the emulsion too.

I'm surprised how this is still a topic, it's such a simple solution that only has benefits and no downsides. very cheap too (I reuse the deionized a few times before dumping)

Water Evaporation Spots on Film

MattKing

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Sirius Glass

Derek Lofgreen

Ian David

eli griggs

MattKing

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GLS

250swb

guangong

Richard Searle

laingsoft

mtlc

Two23

Helinophoto

QuisAmet

Helinophoto

Kino

logan2z

GLS

Helinophoto

Anon Ymous

Doremus Scudder

Sirius Glass

eli griggs

dokko

Water Evaporation Spots on Film

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