Watching a Lith print developing in white light?

Ron789 · Jan 20, 2021

Doing some lith printing today.....
Choosing the best moment to "snatch" the print from the developer has always been a bit of a gamble for me, especially with paper that needs red safelights.
While making a test strip today I saw the image appearing and since it was only a test strip I decided to turn on the (plain, strong) white light to see what would happen, expecting that the print would darken very quickly. But it didn't. For minutes I watched the print developing and the image getting stronger and more contrasty.
Then I put the print in the stop bath, fix, selenium toner and water, all while the white light was on, and the result was just fine.
Thinking this thing through it started making perfect sense: in a lith print it takes several minutes (in my case, minimal 4 minutes) of development before the latent image becomes visible in the print. Turning on the plain white light during the last one or two minutes of the print development will create a new latent image all over the print but this will not be developed enough to become visible, since that would take another 4 minutes at least. By then, the print has gone through the stop bath and is in the fix.
So, it seems fine to watch the final phase of a lith print development in plain white light, making it much easier to snatch the print from the developer at the best moment!
Does anyone have any experience with this? Am I taking any (long term) risk doing this?

ic-racer · Jan 20, 2021

I use a pretty bright flashlight with a red filter and never noticed any fogging, with the light held pretty close. What you experienced does make sense since development is not completed. For example, you did fog the paper, but the paper is under developed. Similar to using expired "Fogged" paper. The white edges are white due to under development inherent in the Lith technique.

grain elevator · Jan 22, 2021

I like the idea and I've sort of done that when I lost patience and erroneously thought my developer was dead, left the dark(bath)room and let light in. At some point, it has an effect of course. Can be desirable even, there's more color and of course lower contrast to those prints.
But I have my suspicions regarding fixing. I have tried fixing a scrap piece of paper that had been laying around in the light several days, and it didn't fix well at all. At the normal time for this paper, it was somewhat cleared, but a test with sulfide toner revealed it was hardly fixed. I don't know if this effect, the formation of silver compounds that are hard to fix out, sets in so quickly, I might test this in my next lith session.

Dwayne Martin · Aug 16, 2021

I have read about people flicking on the lights while the print is in the dev to flash the paper in order to improve the highlights, same principle as flashing normal prints in the enlarger. I actually tried this recently but one lith is so different from the other I couldn’t really tell the difference when I was done with the session. I’m considering buying a darkroom torch from Rh designs to help me with my snatch point timing….

radiant · Aug 17, 2021

OP: Interesting idea.

However I haven't had a problem with the snatch point. I usually monitor pre-decided mid-tone area and make my snatch based on that. When I examine I use cheap button cell red light and look around pretty close to the paper.

mooseontheloose · Aug 17, 2021

Devorobin said:
I’m considering buying a darkroom torch from Rh designs to help me with my snatch point timing….

Do it! I have two and my darkroom experience is so much better for it. I got it for lith printing but in fact it works well for general printing as well. I love that you don't have to hold it, and when you use it, it's a simple press of the button to get the light to go on or not.

tezzasmall · Aug 20, 2021

As one who is starting out in lith printing, after doing a lot of reading, I'm curious as to the lith developer especially that you all use? I have just started to try out Easy Lith, and I'm finding that prints are quite repeatable from doing a test strip, at least whilst the developer is fresh. It also has a good development time, which in my early tests is only about 2 to 3 minutes at 20C.

Also do any of you make up and use a certain lith formula that you could pass on? I've found loads of formulas on the web and am working my way through them, but Easy Lith is much better than any I've tried so far.

Many thanks in advance,

Terry S

koraks · Aug 20, 2021

tezzasmall said:
Also do any of you make up and use a certain lith formula that you could pass on?

Look for the Ryuji Suzuki formulas. They're straightforward, easy to mix, use common ingredients and work well.
I've had good succes with a developer that consisted of just hydroquinone, a pinch of sulfite (you need a little, not much) and carbonate, with sometimes (but not always) bromide or chloride added.
Very much like the second formula shown here: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/lith-printing--homebrew-developers.26536/#post-370901

naaldvoerder · Aug 20, 2021

Tim Rudman describes flicking on white light in the last fase of with development in his book, the Lith bible.

radiant · Aug 21, 2021

tezzasmall said:
I'm curious as to the lith developer especially that you all use? I have just started to try out Easy Lith, and I'm finding that prints are quite repeatable from doing a test strip, at least whilst the developer is fresh. It also has a good development time, which in my early tests is only about 2 to 3 minutes at 20C.

I'm using Easy Lith and it works well. I don't know if I ever need any other developer. But 2-3 minutes? Wow, what dilution? In range of 25-50 dilution I never get under 6 minutes.

mooseontheloose · Aug 21, 2021

vedostuu said:
I'm using Easy Lith and it works well. I don't know if I ever need any other developer. But 2-3 minutes? Wow, what dilution? In range of 25-50 dilution I never get under 6 minutes.

I use similar dilutions and can get those times with hotter temps - I rarely develop anything at 20C, it’s usually just too slow in lith.

Paper has a lot to do with it too, some are definitely faster in the developer than others.

tezzasmall · Aug 26, 2021

vedostuu said:
I'm using Easy Lith and it works well. I don't know if I ever need any other developer. But 2-3 minutes? Wow, what dilution? In range of 25-50 dilution I never get under 6 minutes.

Thanks for the feedback guys. It all gives me something to mull over

I've been using Easy Lith at 20C at a 1:25 dilution, which then gives me a development time of 2 - 3 minutes, which I thought was about normal - obviously not though!

I even tried doubling the dilution to see if it was possible, to stretch out the small bottle that I am initially trying, and at the dilution of 1:50 @ 20C, exposure was about double = about 6 minutes.

I don't know what paper you use, but I am trying out Fomatone FB MG Classic 132 Matt paper.

Terry S

M Carter · Aug 27, 2021

I use one of those Superbright red LED bulbs in a gooseneck light mounted above my trays and heaters - those are fantastic bulbs, cheap, don't overlap the paper spectrum etc. Never needed a red flashlight again.

I have a dedicated lith setup with a light and timer so I can do repeatable flashing; the time when you flash does make a difference. I've turned the lights on just before stop bath; I judge my lith print snatch times by highlights; with drydown going on, I tend to learn specific tones for a given print; when they appear, I snatch it.

It can be very depressing to turn the lights on between stop and fix; there's nothing like the colors of a lith print before it's fixed, it's pretty sad to watch them fade away.

M Carter · Aug 27, 2021

koraks said:
Look for the Ryuji Suzuki formulas. They're straightforward, easy to mix, use common ingredients and work well.
I've had good succes with a developer that consisted of just hydroquinone, a pinch of sulfite (you need a little, not much) and carbonate, with sometimes (but not always) bromide or chloride added.
Very much like the second formula shown here: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/lith-printing--homebrew-developers.26536/#post-370901

I've never used the Moersch products but need to try them. Most of my work has been done with arista liquid, but I used LD-20 for lith with MGWT. When LD-20 was discontinued, I switched to Ultrafine's powdered developer for MGWT. But man - LD-20 is a far superior developer; the shadow detail it can achieve was a big leap from Ultrafine.

Anyone know what made LD-20 such a great product? It was a formalin developer so there's the safety issues, same as arista; I really need to give Moersch a try since formaldehyde is pretty nasty stuff and can mess you up over time.

sasah zib · Oct 5, 2021

Not an answer to longevity of products in stock; Kodak was fond of
Formaldehyde-sodium bisulfite CAS: 870-72-4 which is used in their:
3,573,914 Patented Apr.6,1971
Thomas J. Masseth, Rochester,N.Y.,assignor to EastmanKodakCompany

formulas from Kodak Patent
---
If you want to check further into the patent stack, these should be helpful. They also indicate some of the commercial mannerisms from the lith industry.
3,749,574 Patented July 31, 1973
3,799,780 Patented Mar. 26, 1974
4,025,344 May 24, 1977
4,598,040 Jul. 1, 1986
===stop bath
3,284,199 Patented Nov. 8, 1966

Lith developers can be as simple as
hydroquinone
sodium sulfite
potassium bromide [minute]
potassium carbonate
-- the stock/ tray life are exceedingly short --- mix and use every hour or so.

Dwayne Martin · Oct 10, 2021

M Carter said:
I use one of those Superbright red LED bulbs in a gooseneck light mounted above my trays and heaters - those are fantastic bulbs, cheap, don't overlap the paper spectrum etc. Never needed a red flashlight again.

I have a dedicated lith setup with a light and timer so I can do repeatable flashing; the time when you flash does make a difference. I've turned the lights on just before stop bath; I judge my lith print snatch times by highlights; with drydown going on, I tend to learn specific tones for a given print; when they appear, I snatch it.

It can be very depressing to turn the lights on between stop and fix; there's nothing like the colors of a lith print before it's fixed, it's pretty sad to watch them fade away.

I use amber safelights even though I’m using Fomatone paper which is supposed to require red light. I have zero problems with fogging. Maybe the reason is like flicking on the white lights you never develop a lith to the point where the fogging from that will actually show up. My torch helps when I get close to the snatch point and I can watch the blacks really close to see when they start to block up…

Watching a Lith print developing in white light?

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