Washing Your Film - A collection of how different people wash & save water

Donald Qualls · May 3, 2005

Well, color me stodgy -- I use the unmodified Ilford regime:

fill, invert 5 times, dump.
fill, invert 10 times, dump.
fill, invert 20 times, dump.
fill and treat with wetting agent, remove and hang film.

I used distilled water for all steps. Still costs me less than half a dollar for each roll, even with distilled water at 99 cents a gallon. Negatives washed this way over a year ago still look fine (another fifty years, give or take, to be sure I'm really archival).

geraldatwork · May 3, 2005

Dump off the fix.
Fill with water invert 5 or 6 times vigorously dump
Fill with water invert 5 or 6 times vigorously dump
Fill with water invert 5 or 6 times vigorously and let stand 3 minutes, dump
Fill with water and let sit under slow running water about 5 minutes
Fill with water place photoflo solution (about 1/2 recommended) gently shake and wipe excess with my fingers (35mm film) I don like to shake the photoflo too vigorously because it causes bubbles.

Phillip P. Dimor · May 3, 2005

I fill with water three to five times and pour out each time,
then I place reels into a large container with a Kodak Siphon Print Washer
and let it soak for about ten to fifteen minutes.

I then fill with water three to five times and pour out each time again.
No photoflo for me!

Claire Senft · May 3, 2005

If you really want to save water save your rinse water and reuse it. Use distilled water with Photo flo for final rinse.

418E · May 3, 2005

wash the right way...

This is one of the most critical steps in film processing!
The only way I know of to save water is to use a hypo-clear.

There is a little device called "WET-AIR". This hooks up to a water source and uses a smart design to force air into the chamber, cleaning the film effectively, using less water in the process.

There is a test you can perform to make sure your film is free of fix and I don't have the procedure at hand at the moment....

If there is "ANY" fix in your film, EVEN the slightest amount, years down the line you will have the biggest surprise.

You could try a small amount of hydrogen peroxide in one of the washes as well.

The distilled water idea is a good one.

Sea water is great to use as well if you have it available.

418

Tom Hoskinson · May 3, 2005

418E said:
You could try a small amount of hydrogen peroxide in one of the washes as well.

Hydrogen peroxide (i.e. as a Hypo Eliminator) has been shown by Kodak and others to be a bad idea and is no longer recommended for archival photographic processing.

Rlibersky · May 3, 2005

Boy I'm probaly going to be trouble for this.

I use the old method of running water at 68f to allow for a 1 complete change at most every minute. I do this for 20 minutes.

I'm curious if using soften water, does it have the same effect as salty water or it it to dilute?

418E · May 4, 2005

...

...and who ever listens to kodak

418

Tom Hoskinson said:
Hydrogen peroxide (i.e. as a Hypo Eliminator) has been shown by Kodak and others to be a bad idea and is no longer recommended for archival photographic processing.

modafoto · May 4, 2005

After fixing:

Fill the tank with tap water
Invert 5 times
Empty the tank

Fill the tank with tap water
Invert 10 times
Empty the tank

Fill the tank with tap water
Invert 15 times
Empty the tank

Fill the tank with tap water
Invert 20 times
Empty the tank

Fill the tank with tap water
Invert 30 times
Empty the tank

Then I fill the tank with distilled water with a few drops of Agfa Agepon added. (I might try Les' method with Isopropyl alcohol).

Then I put the reels into a lab spin drier for 5 seconds. Then I hang the film in a drying cabinet.

Greetings Morten

Les McLean · May 4, 2005

418E said:
You could try a small amount of hydrogen peroxide in one of the washes as well.

30 years ago when I started making photographs I was told by a press photographer to use a small amount of hydrogen peroxide in my wash to speed up the process and save water. I did and within 1 year the negatives deteriorated, they began to solarise and stain. I know that they were correctly fixed for even in my early days I used fixer for only one developing session. Consequently this is not a procedure that I would recommend.

Paul Howell · May 4, 2005

Kodak hypo eliminator (hydrogen peroxide+ammonia) was never intended to use with negatives, and when used with prints it does not shorten the wash time it is used to eliminat trace amounts of fixer after normal washing.

Paul

Tom Hoskinson · May 4, 2005

That is correct, Paul. However, it has been demonstrated that it can also remove compounds from the print that are essential to long term image stability. As a consequence, use of hydrogen peroxide based hypo eliminator is no longer recommended for use in processing fiber based prints.

Ara Ghajanian · May 4, 2005

So am I to understand that Hypo Clear is really not necessary in film processing? I usually wash 5 minutes after the fix and 10 minutes after hypo clear. I don't really have a method of washing, I just have running water at 68 degrees and change it as often as I can. Does this sound right to you all?
Ara

Tom Hoskinson · May 4, 2005

Hypo Clearing Agent (sodium sulfite based) and other similar washing aids are not really necessary in film processing - unless you have antihalation dye that is not removed by your fixing bath.

Otherwise, your washing procedure sounds ok. It is always a good idea to test your washing procedure for proper hypo removal with one of the test solutions (like Edwal's).

It is also a good idea to make sure that you are using good, active fixer. This can be checked with a clearing time test on a scrap of film.

Lee Shively · May 4, 2005

I don't try to conserve water. Here in Louisiana, we're blessed with lots of water. Lots of flooding too.

Water rinse after the developer, drain, and then 30 seconds Kodak Indicator Stop Bath for 30 seconds with constant agitation. Drain.

Kodak Rapid Fixer with Hardener for 2-4 minutes with agitation for 15-30 seconds initially and every 30 seconds thereafter. Drain.

Rinse in running water for about a minute. Drain.

Kodak HCA, Orbit, Perma-Wash, Hustler, whatever, washing aid for two minutes with constant agitation. Drain. (By the way, I use HP5+ and Pan F+ almost exclusively. The washing aid looks like diluted grape juice when I pour it out.)

Wash in processing tank with running water for 10-15 minutes with occasional dumping. Drain.

Finish with Kodak Photo Flo for 30 seconds with constant agitation. Drain.

Hang on line in bathroom to dry.

I wash for at least 10 minutes after using a wash aid. The newspaper where I worked had built-in, "high efficiency" film washing tanks in each darkroom. I was told these washers would completely wash the film in two minutes due to the way they were supposed to work. I usually washed for at least five minutes. I have some of my negatives washed in these "high efficiency" tanks and they show all the signs of fixer contamination after 20-25 years. I use the "low efficiency" method now.

418E · May 5, 2005

hmmmm.

..what is the problem with this forum.... Tom why don't you tell us why H2O2 is not recommended, I would like to know. Paul has it correct. The only reason I could imagine H2O2 could not be used is its incorrect use.

Hypo-clear, sulfite based with a bunch of other goodies eliminates the hypo in the film. Salt water does the same thing, as does H2o2. If you pick up an old photolab index you will see H2O2 used as such. Kodak hypo clear is essential in B&W film processing [if you dont have sea-water ]. It can be very hard to completely wash out the hypo. The KHC neutralizes the hypo. IF there is ANY left in the emulsion, YOUR GONNA HAVE TROUBLE in the future! I guarantee it.

Where is P.Gainer when you need him....sheeeeeeeesh!

There is another reason Kodak, you say, has for not recommending it, maybe the new emulsions...possible. I've been a lab-tech for 10+ years and I have never read this information anywhere.

Lighten-up for gosh sakes!

418

Paul Howell said:
Kodak hypo eliminator (hydrogen peroxide+ammonia) was never intended to use with negatives, and when used with prints it does not shorten the wash time it is used to eliminat trace amounts of fixer after normal washing.

Paul

Dimitri · May 5, 2005

For hand development I do the washing with the "modified" Ilford recommendation.

Fill the tank, 10 inversions and empty. Then fill again, 20 inversions and empty, fill again, 30 inversions and empty and one final fill with 40 inversions and then empty.

For rotary, I use the Jobo recommendation. 10X30 sec rinses.

Then place film (minus reel) in a container with water and 2-3 drops of PhotoFlo for 30-60 secs and then squegee and hang to dry.

Of the two the Jobo procedure is the more water demanding and it uses 25% more (or about 480ml per complete run)

MikeS · May 5, 2005

I have 2 different washing methods depending on if I'm using a pyro/staining developer or not. For non-staining developers:

Fix (with hardener) 2.5 minutes
Hypo Clear (with KRST added) 2.5 minutes
fill and dump tank
fill, 5 inversions
fill, 10 inversions
fill, 20 inversions
C41 stabilizer in a separate tray (this is all for 4x5 sheet film developed in a Nikor tank)
hang to dry.

for Pyro/staining developers:

Fix (alkaline) 2.5 minutes
fill & dump tank
fill, 5 inversions
fill, 10 inversions
fill, 20 inversions
let running water run for 30minutes at a fairly slow rate (supposedly helps with stain formation)
C41 stabilizer in separate tray (I use C41 stabilizer instead of photo-flo)
hang to dry.

-MikeS

Tom Hoskinson · May 5, 2005

MikeS said:
for Pyro/staining developers:

let running water run for 30minutes at a fairly slow rate (supposedly helps with stain formation)

-MikeS

Mike, do you have technical references that you can cite?

From my personal experience, the pyro stain formation (of the image) and proportional tanning occurs in the developing process.

Donald Qualls · May 5, 2005

Unrelated to water saving, but related to HCA -- I've recently found that the occasion streak of dye that doesn't wash out of sheet films processed in tubes (with the base side of the film in contact with the inside of the tube) will decolor with just a couple minutes soak in a sort of homemade HCA. I've been using one teaspoon of washing soda (sodium carbonate monohydrate, laundry grade), two ounces of 20% sodium sulfite solution, and water to make 22 ounces (which is deep enough, in the graduate I use, to nicely cover 9x12 cm sheets, which bridge across the container and so touch only at the ends). This isn't washing out the dye -- the solution doesn't become colored, as was the case with water washes even when they didn't fully remove the dye -- but apparently decoloring it, and this amount of solution will decolor at least half a dozen sheets, likely many more. My hypothesis is that the alkali "reopens" the gelatin (after the acid stop and fixer close it), allowing the sulfite to clear the dye rapidly. One more point of support for alkaline fixer, which should make this unnecessary (by never trapping the dye in the gelatin in the first place).

I use this immediately after fixing, then proceed to my regular Ilford type wash, where leaving the film in an alkaline state should also mean a more complete wash in the same cycle of fills and inversions. Results are excellent with Fomapan 100 and TXT (old Tri-X 320, 9x12 cm sheets) and I'm strongly considering rewashing a few of my older negatives that have visible dye streaks and blotches.

Tom Hoskinson · May 5, 2005

418E said:
...Tom why don't you tell us why H2O2 is not recommended, I would like to know.
418

Kodak Hypo Eliminator (HE-1)is:

Water-----------------------------------500 ml
Hydrogen Peroxide (3% solution)----------125 ml
Ammonia (3% solution)-------------------100 ml
Water to make---------------------------1 liter

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Kodak Hypo Eliminator should never be used on films or plates intended to be stored under long-term or archival conditions

Conservation of Photographs (1985) Kodak Publication F-40, CAT 193 5725
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Any gelatin image on a waterproof support can be freed completely from the thiosufates by washing in water without the use of a hypo eliminator.

Haist, Grant, Modern Photographic Processing, Volume 1, 1979, Page 660, John Wiley and Sons
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Images which are completely free of hypo may be unusually vulnerable to oxidative agents in the air. These are very common and include auto exhaust, exhaust from gas heaters or stoves, paint fumes, and many other sources. While in the past it was thought vital for long print life to remove absolutely all hypo it turns out that it isn't necessary and can be counterproductive.

Richard Knoppow - 27 Dec 2003.
http://www.photokb.com/Uwe/Forum.aspx/photo-darkroom/765/Hypo-Eliminator-Toner-Archival

Paul Howell · May 5, 2005

When I posted my comment about KHE I was addressing the of HE with film as this what the subject of this threat is about. In the 1970 there was disagreement about the use of HE with fiber based prints. Ansal Adams did not recommend the use of HE while Andreas Feininger did. In those days most of us did not have archival print washers (the Military and Wire Service has large rotary washers) but for my personal work I washed in trays and used HE as I did not think my wash cycle was very efficient. In the past 25 years most experts have discouraged the use of HE. I used HE in the late 60 and early 70s and have not seen any negative effects on my prints from that time frame. With a clearing bath (I use Orbit Bath) and proper washing I personally don't see the need for HE.

Paul

Bob F. · May 5, 2005

Stick the hose pipe from the water mixer into the dev tank (Jobo or Paterson) at ~ 25deg C and forget about it for at least 20 mins (flow rate approx 5 litres per minute). Final dunk in distilled for a few mins (spin it if using the Jobo to save on distilled). Sometimes put a drop or two of wetting agent in too (not when spinning!) but frankly, can't say I've noticed any difference. Hang to dry.

Don't need HCA with film. Waste of time and money. HCA only needed with fibre paper. Everyone (i.e. Kodak & Ilford) says so. Not for me to argue with the experts... I know my place...

Bob.

Paul Howell · May 5, 2005

I follow the Orbit Bath recommendation for 2 mints in the Bath 5 mint wash in roll film washer or 7 mints for 4X5 in a homemade washer, my testing for residual hypo is clear.

Paul

pmu · Feb 7, 2006

I have a problem. I tested this "not-using-running-water" kind of washing method for 3 different rolls...this is how I did it:

-after fixer, wash 30 seconds with water (I change the water maybe 3 times)
-HCA 2 minutes
-agitate 10 times --> water out
-agitate 15 times --> water out
-agitate 20 times --> water out
-agitate 25 times --> water out
-agitate 20 times --> water out
-agitate 15 times --> water out
-agitate 10 times --> water out
-wetting agent 90 seconds

All water is at 20 C temperature. After HCA that agitating and pouring the water out procedure took maybe 8-10 minutes (+90seconds in wetting agent).

Maybe the result is "archival quality" but still there are some "dust" etc. seen on the film...Just yesterday I did some prints and all of those images where unprintable because the dust didn't come off. The washing result looks like in the old days when I washed my films 20 minutes in running water -- it was not enough = "dust" everywhere. When I started washing my films in running water for 35-40 minutes all "dust" came off and the negatives are totally clean (without HCA). But not with this method I have now tested...

Washing Your Film - A collection of how different people wash & save water

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