Washing & Toning.

thefizz · Aug 24, 2006

Hi, I have four questions regarding archival washing & toning.

My procedure after fixing is as follows:
5m wash
5m HCA
60m wash*
5m selenium tone 1:19 (I know this is not a full tone for archival purposes)
5m wash
5m HCA
60m wash.

*Do I need to do that first 60m wash before toning or am I over doing it?

I read in Tim Rodmansa book on toning that when HCA is used after fixing, then moderate over-washing or slight under-washing is not important if toning for permanence is to be subsequently carried out. How does this apply to a partly toned print?

I have recently obtained the HT-2 Hypo Test Solution for testing washing efficiency. Should this be used after both of my 60m washes or only after the final wash.

I understand that staining can occur if a print is not properly fixed or washed before toning in selenium. Would such staining appear immediately or over time?

Thanks,
Peter

Saganich · Aug 24, 2006

For my last batch I followed the following proceedure:

After first fix:
Rinse under flowing water with agitation in a tray then store in cold water untill final processing.

2nd fixer, non-hardening. I use a plain Hypo Bath 3 minutes.

Selenium mixed with either HCA, distilled, or purified water.
Place prints into selenium directly from second fixer.

Hypo Clearing 3 minutes
Rinse in tray under running water for several minutes.
Place into cold water untill ready for final wash.

Wash all for one hour, or use soak and dump method depending on the time.

The extra one hour wash in not necessary, to answer your question.

Chris

Saganich · Aug 24, 2006

The staining will appear the next day when you look at the dries prints, looks like bronz spots or streaks. Contamination control is important so it is good to use seperate tongs for removing the prints from the HCA. I suspect you don't want to get selenium on the prints after the HCA bath, but really I'm not too sure about the contamination issue.

blansky · Aug 24, 2006

No you don't need the 60 minute wash.

My procedure is:

From fixer,

3-5 minutes wash
3-5 minute perma wash
3-5 minute wash
into toner for however long you want
back to 3-5 minute wash
3-5 minute perma wash
45-1hour in archival washer.

Michael

Monophoto · Aug 24, 2006

****Do I need to do that first 60m wash before toning or am I over doing it?

I think you are greatly overdoing things.

****I read in Tim Rodmansa book on toning that when HCA is used after fixing, then moderate over-washing or slight under-washing is not important if toning for permanence is to be subsequently carried out. How does this apply to a partly toned print?

Actually, if you read Rudman's book completely, he states that toning for permance requires toning to completion. His logic is that in a partly toned print, the conversion from silver to silver selenite takes place only in the shadow and perhaps midtone areas, and therefore the toner provides incomplete archival protection in the midtone and highlight areas. (See page 159, first column, first and second paragraphs).

****I have recently obtained the HT-2 Hypo Test Solution for testing washing efficiency. Should this be used after both of my 60m washes or only after the final wash.

I would view the test solution as a step that you would take to verify that a process is satisfactory. And once having made that determination, I would not do it again unless I changed the process.

Also, I think two 60 minute washes is entirely too much washing. In fact, if you use hypoclear, you can reduce your final wash to 30 minutes, or better yet, a sequence of soaking baths. You are wasting a lot of water!

****I understand that staining can occur if a print is not properly fixed or washed before toning in selenium. Would such staining appear immediately or over time?

In my (unhappy) experience, toning stains appear almost instantaneously. I have also found that that stains are most likely to occur if I go directly from the fixer to the toner (ie, following the Ansel Adams process). For that reason, I have standardized on the following sequence:
fix
rinse (hold)
hypoclear
tone
hypoclear again
wash

When I follow that sequence, I don't get any stains.

Ryuji · Aug 24, 2006

thefizz said:
My procedure after fixing is as follows:
5m wash
5m HCA
60m wash*
5m selenium tone 1:19 (I know this is not a full tone for archival purposes)
5m wash
5m HCA
60m wash.

*Do I need to do that first 60m wash before toning or am I over doing it?

No. A 5 min wash is enough.
Also, the last 60 min wash can be shortened to 10-20 min.

I read in Tim Rodmansa book on toning that when HCA is used after fixing, then moderate over-washing or slight under-washing is not important if toning for permanence is to be subsequently carried out. How does this apply to a partly toned print?

If permanence is important to you, you should use complete (deep) toning in KRST 1+9 or stronger solution. If not, the print should be further protected with Fujifilm Ag Guard. Alternatively, you might want to consider polysulfide toning.

I have recently obtained the HT-2 Hypo Test Solution for testing washing efficiency. Should this be used after both of my 60m washes or only after the final wash.

After the final wash only.
Also, silver-nitrate test solution is a bit tricky to use correctly. You want to pick up a sample from wash water, and blot it. If the wash water is very cold, allow it to come to room temp. Then apply the test solution and follow the usual instruction.

For first few times, include deliberately underwashed specimens and make sure they make dark stain rather quickly, to make sure the procedure is working.

If you want numerical reading by densitometry method, read the original papers and also addition by Pope.

I understand that staining can occur if a print is not properly fixed or washed before toning in selenium. Would such staining appear immediately or over time?

There are multiple sources of staining. If the fixing is inadequate or removal of fixer is incomplete, you'll see stains very shortly in the toning bath. If the final wash is inadequate, you may see stain some time later.

tim rudman · Aug 24, 2006

http://www.worldoflithprinting.com There is not much I can add Peter, Ryuji and Louie have covered everything above.
Perhaps just to add that you are certainly overwashing and whilst you might think that too much is always safer, you may wash out some/all of the optical brighteners in the paper (if present) and lose some of the 'glow' or luminosity in the prints appearance when dry.
everything else has been covered admirably!
Tim
http://www.worldoflithprinting.com

tim rudman · Aug 24, 2006

Oops, sorry about the double link. Just tried the advanced mode and somehow got it in twice
Tim

RalphLambrecht · Aug 24, 2006

thefizz said:
My procedure after fixing is as follows:
5m wash
5m HCA
60m wash*
5m selenium tone 1:19 (I know this is not a full tone for archival purposes)
5m wash
5m HCA
60m wash.

*Do I need to do that first 60m wash before toning or am I over doing it?

Thanks,
Peter

Peter

You can skip the first 5min HCA and the first 60min wash. The 2nd HCA is fine (I do 10min) and the last wash is fine at 20 to 30 minutes.

Full toning is better than half toning, but some toning is better than none. To me toning is a compromise between longevity and aesthetics (an 'ugly' print doesn't need to live forever). You get more longevity from sulphide toning or a selenium/sulphide combination, but then you need to add a 30min wash prior to toning again.

Also important for longevity is a 2-bath fixing procedure. Other keys to longevity are:

1. Get rid of the non-image silver (fix enough but not too much)
2. Do at least some toning (to protect image silver)
3. Get rid of almost all fixer through washing (all is not possible)
4. Store the prints at reasonable temp/humidity levels
5. Avoid severe temp/humidity fluctuations
6. Avoid unnessecary exposure to light

thefizz · Aug 24, 2006

Thank you all for your help, it is much appreciated.

Peter

david b · Aug 24, 2006

So to be clear,
after fixing without toning:

- 5 minute wash
- 10 minute in HCA
- 5 minute wash

after fixing with selenium toning:

- 5 minute wash
- 3 minutes in KRST 1+19
- 5 minute wash
- 10 minutes in HCA
- 20 minute FINAL wash

Is this correct to you all?

Ryuji · Aug 24, 2006

david b said:
So to be clear,
after fixing without toning:

- 5 minute wash
- 10 minute in HCA
- 5 minute wash

after fixing with selenium toning:

- 5 minute wash
- 3 minutes in KRST 1+19
- 5 minute wash
- 10 minutes in HCA
- 20 minute FINAL wash

Is this correct to you all?

Those procedures look good.

tim rudman · Aug 25, 2006

david b said:
So to be clear,
after fixing without toning:

- 5 minute wash
- 10 minute in HCA
- 5 minute wash

after fixing with selenium toning:

- 5 minute wash
- 3 minutes in KRST 1+19
- 5 minute wash
- 10 minutes in HCA
- 20 minute FINAL wash

Is this correct to you all?

I wouldn't go exactly with that.
You haven't said whether you use an acid, neutral or alkaline fixer?
If using an acid fixer I would always either use a longer wash than above before KRST, or (what I do) an HCA stage here, in which case a wash isn't really necessary, just a rinse perhaps. The reason being that it is easy to get staining if the print is acidic when it goes into KRST or similar. You can't remove that stain but you can avoid it easily.
This also applies to using Se after (most) gold toners, which are acidic. If you take a print from such a gold toner into Se after a short rinse it will stain brown immediately and heavily

Also, what are you toning for? Dmax, colour or archival protection?
Tim

tim rudman · Aug 25, 2006

As a P.S. to the above, as people sometimes have difficulty on workshops remembering when to HCA or not, and at what stage & with different combinations of toning, I teach 'Practice Safe Selenium!' - HCA before and after Se.
Sometimes it may be unnecessary but it doesn't matter, is easy to remember, covers all eventualities and never fails.
Tim

RalphLambrecht · Aug 25, 2006

Tim

Why the HCA before Se-toning? Doesn't KRST contains thiosulfate itself?

My experienec is that a 10-minute wash prior to Se-toning prevents staining even with acid fixers. Did this not work for you?

tim rudman · Aug 25, 2006

Hi Ralph,
simply to help prevent Se staining after an acid fixer (or, as I said - a longer wash than above)
Tim

Ryuji · Aug 25, 2006

tim rudman said:
If using an acid fixer I would always either use a longer wash than above before KRST, or (what I do) an HCA stage here, in which case a wash isn't really necessary, just a rinse perhaps. The reason being that it is easy to get staining if the print is acidic when it goes into KRST or similar.

Does this happen with absolutely fresh acid fixer? (I'm asking whether the stain of the kind you described actually occurs with fresh acid fixer in practice, not in accordance with the common explanation of the "acid causes stain.")

tim rudman · Aug 25, 2006

Absolutely fresh? Well I never keep fixer over to another day, and i monitor it regularly through every session, replacing on longer sessions always sooner rather than later.
It certainly isn't apochryphal and I have seen it - especially on workshops (where of course the fixer may not get watched as closely with many people using it). It is extremely marked Ryuji if, as I said, a print goes from gold (acidic type) to se with only a rinse - I have seen prints go brown instantly. So I adopt a safety first programme.
Tim
Tim

Ryuji · Aug 25, 2006

Well, both used fixer and gold toner contain something (Ag or Au) that reacts with selenium toner, but not fresh acid stop or fresh acid fix. The pH of the gelatin coating layer does not change that fast in quick rinse, but Kodak rapid selenium toner solution contains sufficient alkaline agent to make the print alkaline very rapidly.

I personally use neutral/alkaline rapid fix and I don't see that kind of stain without using washing aid before toning, but I do see the stain when the fix is exhausted.

I understand the rationale for your safe procedure, but I think the reason may be residual silver or gold ions rather than, or in additon to residual acid. Anyway, this is easy to test by using test specimens impregnated with silver-loaded fix, silver-free acid fix, etc., and then immersing them in the toner.

dancqu · Aug 26, 2006

tim rudman said:
... to help prevent Se staining after an acid fixer ...Tim

IIRC, I've seen recommended Kodalk. How about A&H
bicarbonate of soda? Dan

Philippe-Georges · Aug 26, 2006

Well, when the item is up now, what about this way Ryuiji?

- Developed in a home brewed bath ( Vit-C + Phenidone) for 5 min. @ 22°C
- Stoped in Potassium Disulphite, 50 gr/lit, for 1 min. @ 22°C
- Two bath Fixing in AGFA FX-U neutral fixer for 2 x 2 min. @ 22°C
- First rince, running water, for +/- 2 min. @ 22°C
- So called conditioning bath in 2% Borax for 1 min. @ 22°C
- Toned in Kodak Rapid Selenium Toner 1+5 for 2 min. @ 22°C
- Second rinse in running water, for +/- 5 min. @ 22°C
- Kodak Hypo Clearing Agent for 3 min @ 22°C
- Final wash, in the Paterson print washer, for 30 min @ 22°C
- Resting in fresh water for about 30 min.
- Passed in an wetting agent (a few drops) before wiping off the exess of water
- Dried to the air @ room temp. on a nylon screen, faced up.
- flattened in a glazing press, faced toward the textile side, @ an warm-to-hot temp.

I know it is not the absolute process, so, comments are welcome!

RalphLambrecht · Aug 26, 2006

What is the 'conditioning bath' for?
I use HCA as you after toning but for 5 to 10 minutes.
I'm not sure that you need the 'resting in fresh water' after HCA and a 30-minute wash, but it won't hurt.
I suggest Sistan as a replacement for the wetting agent.

No other issues.

Philippe-Georges · Aug 26, 2006

Ralph,

The bath I call 'conditioning bath' (= pH +/- 9), in lack of a better name, is to bring the pH level of the emulsion (after fixing = +/- pH 7) towards the one of the Selenium (= pH +/- 9.2). By this the Selenium lasts for a very long time, as a matter of fact it lasts for over an year, low pH is bad for Selenium.
This is why I use Potassiun Disulphite for the stopbath, fresh it has a pH 3.5 and after a few prints it rises verry fast up to pH 6 where it stays for a long time, and topped off every time whit fresh one, it lasts for allmoste a year.
So : dev. = pH 9.5 -> stop = pH 6 -> fix = pH 7 -> Borax = pH 9 -> Selenium = pH 9.2 -> KHCA = pH +/- 7 -> tab water = pH +/- 7.2, do you agree?
The pH grades are +/- becouse my pH meter is rather old and in need of a new electrode.

I got some ideas from the web site of Lloyd Erlick (interesting!) who allso states that dumping (wasting) chemicals not only is expensive but also very bad for the environment, he's right don' t you think so?

Kodak say's 3 min HCA at 20° C, at 22°C it is near to your 5 min. but I will considder your suggestion.

The 'resting in fresh water' has been suggested by a photographer working for the archive of the Gent University. He says that by doing so there is still some fixer left over in the emulsion, not to much but just enough, what is necessary as suggested by the I.P.I. of Rochester (U.S.A.).
Because an 100 % wash, after 30 min. and HCA, is not possible, there is still a bit of fixer agent in the emulsion, the 'resting' is dilluting the rest, what's left is just 'good'.

I would like to use Sistan, but here it is onley for sale in packs of 12 500 ml botles, as it can be used "...till the last drop..." I would have Sistan left over for my son.

Thank you for your reaction,

Philippe

RalphLambrecht · Aug 26, 2006

leicam5 said:
I would like to use Sistan, but here it is onley for sale in packs of 12 500 ml botles, as it can be used "...till the last drop..." I would have Sistan left over for my son.
Philippe

You could go to Photokina next month and pick some up in Cologne.

Ryuji · Aug 28, 2006

leicam5 said:
Well, when the item is up now, what about this way Ryuiji?

My name is Ryuji... Another acceptable spelling is Riuyi if you speak Spanish.

The process seems excessive and there are unnecessary steps.

- Developed in a home brewed bath ( Vit-C + Phenidone) for 5 min. @ 22°C

I don't know what the formula is, but more rapidly developing print developers are better for toning applications.

- Stoped in Potassium Disulphite, 50 gr/lit, for 1 min. @ 22°C

This is a bad idea. Use water rinse or other acid stop bath.

- Two bath Fixing in AGFA FX-U neutral fixer for 2 x 2 min. @ 22°C
- First rince, running water, for +/- 2 min. @ 22°C

Ok.

- So called conditioning bath in 2% Borax for 1 min. @ 22°C

This step is unnecessary. If stain occurs, use wash aid or plain sodium sulfite (2%) solution instead.

- Toned in Kodak Rapid Selenium Toner 1+5 for 2 min. @ 22°C
- Second rinse in running water, for +/- 5 min. @ 22°C
- Kodak Hypo Clearing Agent for 3 min @ 22°C
- Final wash, in the Paterson print washer, for 30 min @ 22°C

If the second rinse is continuously running water, 1-2 min is adequate. Final wash can also be shortened to 10-20 min.

- Resting in fresh water for about 30 min.
- Passed in an wetting agent (a few drops) before wiping off the exess of water

What's the point of resting?
It is generally prefered to minimize wet time while adequately washing residual thiosulfate and other processing agents to an acceptable level. Prolonged wet time can cost you in terms of difficulty of drying flat, whiteness of the base, etc.

Washing & Toning.

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency