Washing film: how long is too long?

Laurent · Oct 30, 2023

Hello my fellow photographers.

I'm trying to get back to the darkroom as a way to fight my burnout, and since I developped infrequently some of my solutions have gone bad.

I developped 6 films yesterday, ans noticed my fixer had a very dark color. It seem to fix OK but I thought I would refix films when I get new fixer.

I left the film in de-ionized water over night to avoid dust issues, but don't know when I'll get the fixer. Are a few days in water too much for my films?

bedrof · Oct 30, 2023

Hi, Laurent
Can you test the fixer with a piece of film? The solution might be working fine even when the color looks bad.

Laurent · Oct 30, 2023

Hi Ilya,

I tested it, but feel a bit paranoïd due to my lack of practice. I looks very dark and the Agefix test strip tells me it's at 5g/l of silver. It seems to work fine, but I'll be more comfortable with a fresh fix.

Don_ih · Oct 30, 2023

Don't leave the negatives in water for so long. You may end up with the gelatin flaking off the base. You can refix dry negatives - just keep them in the dark and fix them again as soon as possible.

Fixer seems to only go bad if it sulphurs-out. That would be a yellowish cloud lingering at the bottom of the container. But it's always better to start with fresh chemicals, if it's all been sitting around for a long time. New fixer is cheaper than ruined film.

Also, you sometimes can't tell if your film is completely fixed until it's dry.

TomR55 · Oct 30, 2023

The cost of fresh chemistry pales in comparison to the relative costs of your time, film and the amount of effort in making your photographs, Using fresh chemistry and good practice also reduces the number of variables to consider when assessing our output.

bedrof · Oct 30, 2023

And I would

Laurent said:
Hi Ilya,

I tested it, but feel a bit paranoïd due to my lack of practice. I looks very dark and the Agefix test strip tells me it's at 5g/l of silver. It seems to work fine, but I'll be more comfortable with a fresh fix.

Then I would dry the film and later refix in fresh fixer. If you don't feel comfortable exposing negatives to daylight, leave them inside the tank but with no water.
I would not leave the film in water for very long time, it might ruin the emulsion.

bdial · Oct 30, 2023

It varies, depending on the particular film. Overnight, it the longest I would let film soak, and that long is risking soaking off the emulsion. But there is no need to keep it wet. As mentioned, go ahead and dry the film, then refix when you get the chance.

BMbikerider · Oct 30, 2023

It is generally considered that the way to wash films if you are using a tank is to carry out six changes of water after you have emptied out the fixer. Fill the tank and with constant agitation for 30 seconds then empty away and refill. Do this 6 times and after the last rinse refill the tank with water containing a tiny drop of wetting agent and let it stand for a minute then pour away then hang the film up to dry.

What may be the cause of the darkening of the fixer may be the emulsion breaking away from the film. For 'normal' films such a FP4 Tri X HP5 5 mins is more than enough time to fix them properly. With films like Ilford Delta or Kodak T Max this may take longer.

The standard not technical, time tested way to see if the film is sufficiently fixed is to take an undeveloped clip of film and drop it into the fixer and see how long it takes to clear, then double the time when you process a full film The total time should not be over 5 mins. (except the two films I mentioned earlier).

Don't leave the film to soak in plain water even overnight, this could cause the emulsion to lift off the film backing. If you need to re-fix, after rinsing dry the film and before refixing soak the film in a water bath first, but in over 60 years of processing I may have had to refix a film perhaps once or twice.

Laurent · Oct 30, 2023

Thanks for your replies. I've removed the water, and let the film in the reels, until I get the fixer.

I almost cancelled development session yesterday, but the film was in the reels and I was concerned about the plastic of the tank releasing stuff in the air.

I need to be more consistent I guess

koraks · Oct 30, 2023

Laurent said:
I've removed the water, and let the film in the reels

That's not a very good idea. The emulsion will stick to the reels, potentially damaging the emulsion and fouling the reels. It's better to just remove the film from the reels, hangt to dry in a dark space (you don't want the remaining silver halide to print out over time) and then load back onto the reels when you get your new fixer in.

guangong · Oct 30, 2023

I haven used Permawash since late 1960s, thereby reducing wash time to just a few minutes. The less time film is in water, the better. After 60-70 years, negatives still look great.

BMbikerider · Oct 30, 2023

koraks said:
That's not a very good idea. The emulsion will stick to the reels, potentially damaging the emulsion and fouling the reels. It's better to just remove the film from the reels, hangt to dry in a dark space (you don't want the remaining silver halide to print out over time) and then load back onto the reels when you get your new fixer in.

Apart from the above you run the risk of watermarks cause by the uneven drying of the water droplets off the emulsion. More so if you live in a hard water area.

BMbikerider · Oct 30, 2023

Laurent said:
I almost cancelled development session yesterday, but the film was in the reels and I was concerned about the plastic of the tank releasing stuff in the air.

The plastic that is used to make up the tanks is inert and I have never ever had a problem with any sort of odours which could be given off affecting a film is more remote than a heatwave at the north pole.

Sirius Glass · Oct 30, 2023

Don_ih said:
Don't leave the negatives in water for so long. You may end up with the gelatin flaking off the base. You can refix dry negatives - just keep them in the dark and fix them again as soon as possible.

Fixer seems to only go bad if it sulphurs-out. That would be a yellowish cloud lingering at the bottom of the container. But it's always better to start with fresh chemicals, if it's all been sitting around for a long time. New fixer is cheaper than ruined film.

Also, you sometimes can't tell if your film is completely fixed until it's dry.

I have had the emulsion float off the base when the film was in warm water too long.

Sirius Glass · Oct 30, 2023

BMbikerider said:
It is generally considered that the way to wash films if you are using a tank is to carry out six changes of water after you have emptied out the fixer. Fill the tank and with constant agitation for 30 seconds then empty away and refill. Do this 6 times and after the last rinse refill the tank with water containing a tiny drop of wetting agent and let it stand for a minute then pour away then hang the film up to dry.

What may be the cause of the darkening of the fixer may be the emulsion breaking away from the film. For 'normal' films such a FP4 Tri X HP5 5 mins is more than enough time to fix them properly. With films like Ilford Delta or Kodak T Max this may take longer.

The standard not technical, time tested way to see if the film is sufficiently fixed is to take an undeveloped clip of film and drop it into the fixer and see how long it takes to clear, then double the time when you process a full film The total time should not be over 5 mins. (except the two films I mentioned earlier).

Don't leave the film to soak in plain water even overnight, this could cause the emulsion to lift off the film backing. If you need to re-fix, after rinsing dry the film and before refixing soak the film in a water bath first, but in over 60 years of processing I may have had to refix a film perhaps once or twice.

I use eight changes of 500ml of water with the Jobo processor.

JerseyDoug · Oct 30, 2023

Washing film in a spiral tank using the Ilford method* takes less than 10 minutes and uses very little water (one liter of water with a 250 ml tank).

* Fill tank with water, invert 5 times, pour out water. Fill tank with water, invert 10 times, pour out water. Fill tank with water, invert 20 times, pour out water. Fill tank with water, add 1 or 2 drops of Edwal LPN, invert 1 or 2 times, pour out water.

mshchem · Oct 30, 2023

COLD water won't harm the films. 20°C or colder. I agree simple thing to do is rinse well, hang to dry, then decide next steps once you have fresh fixer. Nothing is harmed, good learning experience.
I printed yesterday, first time in a couple months, It took me an hour to get into the swing.

MattKing · Oct 30, 2023

Do the negatives appear to have cleared? If so, they are at least substantially fixed, and won't be harmed by exposure to reasonable amounts of room light for several days or longer.
Even if they haven't cleared, exposure to moderate light isn't likely to make much of a difference, unless you later develop the film.
The suggestions of the Ilford wash sequence are fine, if you understand that it is optimized for low water usage. To ensure complete washing, a combination of use of a wash aid plus a moderate length of time of continuous, low flow water is safer.

MattKing · Oct 30, 2023

mshchem said:
COLD water won't harm the films. 20°C or colder.

Well this is correct, cold water will decrease the efficiency of the wash - leading to a need for longer time. Washing is a diffusion process.

mshchem · Oct 30, 2023

MattKing said:
Well this is correct, cold water will decrease the efficiency of the wash - leading to a need for longer time. Washing is a diffusion process.

I recall making emulsion. After it set, I ran it through a stainless steel "ricer" then took these noodles and washed for several hours with "cold tap water " here in Iowa this runs between 40 and 60 ° F depending on the season.
The old Kodak Darkroom Dataguide promoted hypo clearing agent, this allowed for colder water

I wasn't advocating very cold water for washing, I meant to indicate that cold water won't dissolve the gelatin.

koraks · Oct 30, 2023

mshchem said:
I meant to indicate that cold water won't dissolve the gelatin.

It won't dissolve, but it'll weaken and be much more prone to damage. It's really not a good idea to keep a coated gelatin emulsion submerged for days on end. Even modern, robust emulsions will eventually fail under these conditions.

mshchem · Oct 30, 2023

koraks said:
It won't dissolve, but it'll weaken and be much more prone to damage. It's really not a good idea to keep a coated gelatin emulsion submerged for days on end. Even modern, robust emulsions will eventually fail under these conditions.

Paper is especially vulnerable, film less so. I have never needed to leave anything in water longer than it takes for a thorough washing.

Don_ih · Oct 30, 2023

The concern isn't dissolving the gelatin. It's causing it to release from the base. It's not super glued on there.

I did an experiment last year or something where i developed and stopped a strip of film and then hung it in my darkroom for a week before fixing it. The film was exposed to room light regularly and extended periods of red light. Once fixed, it looked totally normal. The week of exposure to low to moderate light did nothing.

Laurent · Nov 12, 2023

I thought I had replied already... seems I did not (and sometimes I think I can beat ADHD...)

Anyway, I finally received my fixer (but I may be cursed, it seems to be quite weak, so I fixed using the stock solution, which gives times consistent with a 1+4 dilution... will check with the seller, the other pack is MUCH harder (like the one I used was not properly vacuumed, or not 100% full)

The films did not seem to clear any further, but at least I can sleep without wondering if my images will go forever.

Thanks to all who replied!

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