Washing film - cold running water

[ITD]

Hi

I've been unable to get a source of running water which can be stabilized at ~20degC, so was wondering if there was some rule of thumb about how long to wash film for if the temperature is low - say down to 4 or 5 degC?

I know about the Ilford method, so not looking for that recommendation, and I've considered and rejected the use of a large tank of water kept at ambient temperature or heated because I really don't have the space for that.

If washing in cold water is simply never advisable, then I'd like to know! Otherwise, what should I do to effectively wash film in running water at low temps?

BTW - mostly using TriX-400 if that makes any difference to warnings of reticulation...

Thanks

 

[Rick A]

Its advisable to use wash water the same temp as the chems used to avoid reticulation of the film emulsion. Some films are particularly sensitive to temp changes as little as 3 or 4 degrees, so it would be best to keep as tight tolerences as possible.

 

[ITD]

So, given that it is simply not possible for me to provide running water at the same temperature as the chems, should I forget running water as a wash method?

 

[Ian Grant]

So, given that it is simply not possible for me to provide running water at the same temperature as the chems, should I forget running water as a wash method?

Yes, it's very important to wash at the same temperature as the processing, sudden shocks in temperature greatly increase the grain.

Use the Ilford wash system which is in their film processing PDF's, or printed data sheets. Alternately let the temperature drift down very slowly to the tap water temperature, wash times lengthen as it gets colder.

Ian

 

[mesh]

My water temp is about 5 degrees at the moment... I 'make up' my wash water in a 5L jug with cold and a bit of boiling until I get to around 22 degrees or just a bit over 20. Not sure if this is the right thing to do but I just finished some TMAX and negs look OK...

 

[removed account4]

there are a lot of recommendation but nothing is really set in stone. my wash water
is never the same temp as my developer, neither is my fixer .....
maybe you should try a roll or a sheet and see how it works.

------

i worked for a portrait photographer years ago
after i processed her 5x7 film in hangers
i put it in the slop sink and just ran cold water on top of it for 20 mins
it was COLD in the winter and not so in the summer, and not the same temp as the developer.
the water bath ( not stop ) and fix were both at ambient room temp and the developer
was the only tank that was changed temp ( winter only ) i extrapolated developing times
in the summer when the tank was above 70º

she had been processing film like this for 50+ years ... no reticulation, no problems
cold running water.

her negatives from the 30s and 40s looked perfect.


===========

 

[Ian Grant]

The problem's more of an issue with 35mm films because of the enlargement factor, changes in wash temperature can cause micro-reticulation, grain clumping, which is quite different to the more classic crazing of the gelatin layers caused by reticulation.

In addition people where still using hardening fixers 30 years ago. Some films are susceptible others aren't, and the choice of developer can have an effect as well, so it pays to keep a tight reign, it's no big effort and is very simple.

Ian

 

[removed account4]

i used dk 50 ( replenished ) never used hardener in the fix ....

 

[ITD]

Alternately let the temperature drift down very slowly to the tap water temperature, wash times lengthen as it gets colder.

Ian

Ian, does this mean I could start the wash with 20degC water from a jug and then slowly introduce the running water to avoid the shock and reticulation? Would it be ok to complete the wash with cold water having reduced the sharp temperature change?

Paul

 

[removed account4]

paul

why don't you shoot 2 test rolls,
and run a test.

one roll with a no so cold water wash
and one with a cold water bath.

sometimes a simple test will tell you
what will + will not work for you .

 

[ITD]

paul

why don't you shoot 2 test rolls,
and run a test.

one roll with a no so cold water wash
and one with a cold water bath.

sometimes a simple test will tell you
what will + will not work for you .

Hi, that would certainly be my approach if I had the facility to run a 20degC running water wash, but I don't. I also don't know whether I'd easily be able to check for micro-reticulation by that means, so I want to start by asking for the consensus view of what's possible using cold running water, then test for residual hypo etc to confirm it.

 

[Ian Grant]

Ian, does this mean I could start the wash with 20degC water from a jug and then slowly introduce the running water to avoid the shock and reticulation? Would it be ok to complete the wash with cold water having reduced the sharp temperature change?

Paul

I'd let the water in the tank cool down first, in a water bath - bucket of cold water.

At one time I'd have agreed with John about the water temp being fairly unimportant until another APUG member processed a couple of rolls of Tmax400 120 in my dev tank, with my developer, thermometer, timer etc - his perfectly exposed & developed negatives were excessively grainy, he hadn't controlled the fixer or wash temperatures.

A high PH developer like Rodinal will swell the emulsion more, EFKE(Adox) films have very soft emulsions, there a lot of people having issues with Acros & reticulation something almost unheard of with modern films.

So while some dev/film combinations might pose no problem others do.

Ian

 

[ITD]

I'd let the water in the tank cool down first, in a water bath - bucket of cold water.

That sounds pretty simple to incorporate into the workflow - just fill the dev tank with tempered water after the fix, stand it in a water bath filled straight from the tap, leave to stand for 5-10 mins to equalize temperature then transfer to film washer for washing in cold water.

Sound OK?

 

[Ian Grant]

That sounds pretty simple to incorporate into the workflow - just fill the dev tank with tempered water after the fix, stand it in a water bath filled straight from the tap, leave to stand for 5-10 mins to equalize temperature then transfer to film washer for washing in cold water.

Sound OK?

You missed the important step, have a cup of tea while it cools

Ian

 

[removed account4]

You missed the important step, have a cup of tea while it cools

Ian

there you go

 

[removed account4]

Hi, that would certainly be my approach if I had the facility to run a 20degC running water wash, but I don't. I also don't know whether I'd easily be able to check for micro-reticulation by that means, so I want to start by asking for the consensus view of what's possible using cold running water, then test for residual hypo etc to confirm it.

i thought you had 20ºC water available to you
and that is why you were asking ...
i guess i miss read .. sorry ...


enjoy your tea

 

[Shawn Dougherty]

At one time I'd have agreed with John about the water temp being fairly unimportant until another APUG member processed a couple of rolls of Tmax400 120 in my dev tank, with my developer, thermometer, timer etc - his perfectly exposed & developed negatives were excessively grainy, he hadn't controlled the fixer or wash temperatures.


Ian

I have been lax in controlling my fix/wash temp and have on occasion noticed this as well, also with tmy2, Ian....

Next processing session will test my new washing routine.

 

[ITD]

Thanks guys, much appreciated.

 

[Ian Grant]

I have been lax in controlling my fix/wash temp and have on occasion noticed this as well, also with tmy2, Ian....

Next processing session will test my new washing routine.

It's an area people pay least attention too, then they wonder why someone else is getting far sharper/finer grained images with the same film/developer combination.

The issue becomes greater if or when you have to process at higher temperatures because the emulsion swells more. But in practice I find it far easier maintaining a constant temperature here in Turkey than I do in the UK, because the water temp is so stable.

The grainy TMY shots I saw where unusable, 2 or 3 rolls of film wasted.

Ian

 

[Shawn Dougherty]

Mine were not terrible but noticeable. I make mostly little contact prints with my 120 film so not a huge deal but I wouldn't make enlargements from those affected...

Does this have a lesser affect on slower speed films, Ian? Say FP4+?

Thanks. Shawn

 

[Tom Kershaw]

It's an area people pay least attention too, then they wonder why someone else is getting far sharper/finer grained images with the same film/developer combination.

The issue becomes greater if or when you have to process at higher temperatures because the emulsion swells more. But in practice I find it far easier maintaining a constant temperature here in Turkey than I do in the UK, because the water temp is so stable.

The grainy TMY shots I saw where unusable, 2 or 3 rolls of film wasted.

Ian

Ian,

I experienced some instances of very grainy Delta 400 a couple of years ago and I may well have washed the film at too high a temperature. To what extent does "shock" play a roll, i.e. high temp at first before declining to a more reasonable 20-24ºC?

Tom

 

[Ian Grant]

Tom, there was an article and some research done back in the late 1980's which showed the effects of micro-reticulation/grain clumping quite conclusively, I think in Darkroom & Creative Techniques, (not sure if that's the correct title). and I remember talking to Peter Cattrell (who printed for Fay Godwin) about it 2 or 3 years later.

Helen Bach & I discussed it here on APUG quite a long time ago (she doesn't post any more) it may have been in one of the older lost articles (threads). Most fine art/professional photographers run very tight temperature control over all their processing, many use temperature control mixers on there water supply, (more so in the US than UK).

The shock factor certainly plays a big part, but at what stage it's worst probably depends on the film/developer/fixer combination as well.

Modern books seem to neglect this area, but older books and particularly magazine articles would give far greater stress to overall temperature control, and gentle reduction if using colder running water for washing.

Ian

 

[RalphLambrecht]

... I've been unable to get a source of running water which can be stabilized at ~20degC, so was wondering if there was some rule of thumb about how long to wash film for if the temperature is low - say down to 4 or 5 degC? ...

Washing efficiency increases with water temperature, but a temperature between 20-25°C (68-77°F) is ideal. Higher washing temperatures soften the film emulsion and make it prone to handling damage. The wash water is best kept within 3°C of the film processing temperature to avoid reticulation, which is a distortion of the emulsion, caused by sudden changes in temperature. If you are unable to heat the wash water, prepare an intermediate water bath to provide a more gradual temperature change. If the water temperature falls below 20°C (68°F), increase the washing time and verify the washing efficiency through testing. Avoid washing temperatures below 10°C (50°F). Test show that washing efficiency is increased by water hardness. Soft water is not ideal for film washing.

That said, I haven't done any tests to determine the relationship between washing time and temperature, but I would start with doubling the time for every drop of 5°C. In other words, after using HCA and assuming a washing time of 10 min at 20°C, start with 20 min @ 15°C, or 40 min @ 10°C to do a test.

 

[Tom Kershaw]

Helen Bach & I discussed it here on APUG quite a long time ago (she doesn't post any more) it may have been in one of the older lost articles (threads). Most fine art/professional photographers run very tight temperature control over all their processing, many use temperature control mixers on there water supply, (more so in the US than UK).

The shock factor certainly plays a big part, but at what stage it's worst probably depends on the film/developer/fixer combination as well.

Modern books seem to neglect this area, but older books and particularly magazine articles would give far greater stress to overall temperature control, and gentle reduction if using colder running water for washing.


Ian

I have an Intellifaucet plumbed in but I'm temporarily without a darkroom hot water supply apart from that direct to the Jobo and a kettle.

http://www.hassmfg.com/search.pl/1279640236-7641?keyword=1092&submit=Search


Tom

 

[RalphLambrecht]

I have an Intellifaucet plumbed in but I'm temporarily without a darkroom hot water supply apart from that direct to the Jobo and a kettle.

http://www.hassmfg.com/search.pl/1279640236-7641?keyword=1092&submit=Search


Tom

Tom

I paid twice that much for it 10 years ago!