Washing FB prints in a drought

Mainecoonmaniac · Sep 24, 2014

For years, I've been using my inefficient Arkay tumbling print washer. Due to a severe drought in California, I'm switching over to a more efficient archival print washer. Does anybody have tips for using less water washing FB prints in an archival print washer? I'm going to start using Kodak's HT-2 residual hypo test. I'm also thinking about moving my print washer outside so I can water my plants with the used water from my print washer. The drought is that bad here.

DannL. · Sep 24, 2014

I'm surprised you used that Arkay. The one I had did a real number on the corners of my prints. I couldn't continue using it.

Hypo Clearing Agent?

Mainecoonmaniac · Sep 24, 2014

I do use HCA

DannL. said:
I'm surprised you used that Arkay. The one I had did real number on the corners of my prints. I couldn't continue using it.

Hypo Clearing Agent?

Yes I do use hypo clearing agent. I wash my prints for about 5 minutes after my 2nd fixing bath then soak in HCA for about 5-10 minutes then wash in the tumbling print washer for 1/2 hr to 45 mins. Do you think an overnight soak in HCA will speed the washing?

I've heard that some archival print washers only need 1/2 gal/min to wash effectively.

ann · Sep 24, 2014

Try soak and dump. Soak for 10 minutes dump water soak again repeat 3 times

DannL. · Sep 24, 2014

Are there any lakes in California?

Like Ann said. As far as I know it's clearing agent and water, or lot's of water.

I have never done this, but I have considered getting a recirculation pump to take more advantage of water. Granted the process may not be efficient, but I think it could be done if the water was changed a number of times. I'm sure someone is doing that.

Rick A · Sep 24, 2014

Kodak recommends washing in running water with an exchange rate of 10 - 12 times per hour. The instructions on my bottle of Archival Wash Aid(Adorama brand) lists washing for 5 minutes after fixing, wash aid for 5 minutes, followed by 5 minutes washing. I soak my prints for 2-3 minutes x 2 changes of water, soak in WA, followed by 4-5 changes of water with 2-3 minute soaks each time. I could reduce the final wash by half and still be safe.

Sal Santamaura · Sep 24, 2014

You don't mention what size prints you're washing. I use this one

http://www.summitek.com/cascade.html

in the 11x16 size. It'll handle 16 11x14s, 32 8x10s or some combination of the two. Required flow rate is only 250ml per minute. It's also available in sizes up to 20x24, although the larger versions use more water per minute.

After more than 20 years using this in California, I've never felt guilty about my water consumption. It serves as a "holding tank" while I'm printing and then, when the session is over, gets water flowing through it. If you treat prints in HCA first, a small number of "let the yellow mellow" toilet procedures will offset whatever water you've consumed washing photographs.

miha · Sep 24, 2014

Surprisingly little water is need to wash a FB print. You'll find answers to all your question in this two articles thanks to Martin Reed:

http://www.film-and-darkroom-user.org.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=296 (part one)

http://www.film-and-darkroom-user.org.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=344 (part two)

Xmas · Sep 24, 2014

Put a plastic 'brick' in toilet cistern.

MattKing · Sep 24, 2014

There is lots of interesting info here: (there was a url link here which no longer exists)

L Gebhardt · Sep 24, 2014

Successive trays. After a brief rinse put the print in a tray of water. After a bit of time move it to another tray. Eventually the print will be clean. You can reuse the water in each tray for many prints. Eventually dump the first tray (maybe on your flowers) and move the others down the line. Fill the dumped one with fresh water and put it at the end of the line. You will need to test the prints to be sure they are thoroughly washed. Make sure you agitate the trays so the wash is even and give the paper enough time for the fixer to diffuse out of the paper. It will save you water, but it's a pain in the butt.

Sirius Glass · Sep 24, 2014

I do use Hypo Clearing Agent.

cliveh · Sep 24, 2014

Seeing the reference to brick in the toilet in this thread does introduce the idea of putting your prints in the cistern of your toilet for a few days. The changes of water should wash them quite well.

Mainecoonmaniac · Sep 24, 2014

Now that's an idea

cliveh said:
Seeing the reference to brick in the toilet in this thread does introduce the idea of putting your prints in the cistern of your toilet for a few days. The changes of water should wash them quite well.

My cousin went to Japan and they have these toilets that have a mini bathroom sink on top of the toilet tank. So when one flushes the toilet, the water flows on to the tank lid/basin and flows into the toilet tank to be used as flush water. Very clever.

Vaughn · Sep 24, 2014

As Larry suggested, use standing water in trays with occasional agitation (fill and dump). Use the last tray of water as the first tray for the next print. Dump each tray in storage container for the garden.

Reduce wash time between fix and HCA/washing aid to a minute -- you are just getting surface fixer off to protect the HCA, not trying to get it out of the paper's fibers. That is the job of the HCA and the wash time after.

David A. Goldfarb · Sep 24, 2014

Check Ansel Adams' The Print for a description of the 7-tray method used during another California drought with a photo of a young John Sexton demonstrating.

The basic idea is that after HCA, you've got 7 trays of water lined up, soak in each tray, and at the end of each set of prints washed you dump the first tray, move it to the end of the line and push the other trays up one spot, and fill the last tray with fresh water for the final rinse.

Vaughn · Sep 24, 2014

Michael R 1974 said:
...So, technically it doesn't take much water volume to wash paper. The reason for running wash water is essentially to make sure that surface layer keeps getting automatically (vs manually filling and dumping) taken away and replaced with fresh water. But obviously in the process, a lot of water is wasted...

Would not occasional agitation of the water baths do the same thing as the running water?

cliveh · Sep 24, 2014

Vaughn said:
Would not occasional agitation of the water baths do the same thing as the running water?

No.

Vaughn · Sep 24, 2014

Why not? Agitation would allow water that was right against the paper and has accepted the fixer from the paper to be replaced with water in the tray that has a much lower concentration of fixer than in the paper.

No agitiation would allow concentration of fixer to build up in the water right next to the paper, slowing down the diffusion from the paper to the water.

Vaughn · Sep 24, 2014

Michael R 1974 said:
It helps, but agitating the water bath doesn't replace the surface water layer with fresh water, just water with less thiosulfate. Obviously the more water you have in the tray the better this will work...

But is the concentration of thiosulfate in the water (once agitated) significant compared to fresh water. After the first bath, I very much doubt it.

john_s · Sep 24, 2014

If you're using a progressive series of trays, a little sodium bicarbonate in the water will accelerate the diffusion of fixer. A figure of 300mg/L was recommended by Ryuji Suzuki in a pure-silver post in around 2005. It was based on old Kodak research, I think. The last couple of trays should not have the bicarbonate.

addition: this is after a rinse and use of ordinary HCA (plain sulphite or sulphite plus the usual couple of ingredients).

Vaughn · Sep 24, 2014

I know that Sodium carbonate softens gelatin -- will the bicarb soften the emulsion?

Mainecoonmaniac · Sep 24, 2014

I've never heard of using sodium bicarbonate in water

john_s said:
If you're using a progressive series of trays, a little sodium bicarbonate in the water will accelerate the diffusion of fixer. A figure of 300mg/L was recommended by Ryuji Suzuki in a pure-silver post in around 2005. It was based on old Kodak research, I think. The last couple of trays should not have the bicarbonate.

addition: this is after a rinse and use of ordinary HCA (plain sulphite or sulphite plus the usual couple of ingredients).

I'm wondering if I held prints in a bath with sodium bicarbonate during a print session will speed the final wash up? Since I use a two bath fix, I would have to change how I work by not fixing the prints a 2nd time end of the print session. I would have to fix a second time as I go. I also use rapid fix which reduces the amount of time in the fixer.

37th Exposure · Sep 24, 2014

It really surprises me that in the entire history of photography, nobody has researched processing under drought conditions?! Was water that plentiful way back when? The Ilford film washing method and others have always been controversial. Does there not exist a definitive answer? Besides move out of California.

Mainecoonmaniac · Sep 24, 2014

There's more people now

37th Exposure said:
It really surprises me that in the entire history of photography, nobody has researched processing under drought conditions?! Was water that plentiful way back when? The Ilford film washing method and others have always been controversial. Does there not exist a definitive answer? Besides move out of California.

There's more people in California now. When I was a kid in Sacramento 50 years ago, folks would water their lawns so much that it would flood the gutter and no one would think twice about it. Sacramento was fed by two rivers and water as plentiful. Now with people living here and we had 3 dry years and more agriculture, water is in short supply. There's more talk about using water more efficiently.

Washing FB prints in a drought

Mainecoonmaniac

DannL.

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ann

DannL.

Rick A

Sal Santamaura

miha

Xmas

MattKing

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L Gebhardt

Sirius Glass

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Mainecoonmaniac

Vaughn

David A. Goldfarb

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Vaughn

cliveh

Vaughn

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Mainecoonmaniac

37th Exposure

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Washing FB prints in a drought

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