Washing FB paper in warm water...?

mikeallen · Apr 20, 2020

Hello. A question regarding FB prints. Does using warm water (30-40C) in the final wash speed up fixer removal?
Any advice appreciated.

removedacct1 · Apr 20, 2020

mikeallen said:
Hello. A question regarding FB prints. Does using warm water (30-40C) in the final wash speed up fixer removal?
Any advice appreciated.

I'll answer your question with a question: if you use warm water to wash prints, how do you know how much you can reduce the wash time by and still have a properly washed print?

grainyvision · Apr 20, 2020

In my experience, and according to how the chemistry/physics of it work, yes. The only risk you run is that if your water is too hot on some materials you run the risk of the emulsion peeling up or becoming overly fragile. I've never had any problems with FB paper in hot water using modern materials though. RC paper can also be rinsed under hot water. I've found just 2-3 minutes of running hot water with RC paper is enough to make my hypo-check tests give perfect hypo-free results, and 1 minute good enough for "non-archival, but will probably last a decade" RC test prints. For FB it varies on the material used, fixer age, etc. but in general it still requires at least 30 minutes before it is cleared enough to be archival. For non-archival test print stuff I typically only rinse for 5-10 minutes

kevs · Apr 20, 2020

Yes but using a hypo clearing agent / wash aid is probably a more reliable solution.

RalphLambrecht · Apr 20, 2020

mikeallen said:
Hello. A question regarding FB prints. Does using warm water (30-40C) in the final wash speed up fixer removal?
Any advice appreciated.

it does chemical processe4s can be sped up by raising temperatures..temperatures around 20C are beneficial but above 24C you'll risk emulsion delamination. I trickle-wash for 30min at 20C.

mikeallen · Apr 21, 2020

Thank you all for your replies, most helpful. I'll continue to use warm water. I've not had any problems so far with damage to the emulsion. Thanks again.

NB23 · Apr 21, 2020

I agree hot water would be quicker. But since ilford recommends a 1h wash in water as cold as 5c, why waste money on hot?

Doremus Scudder · Apr 21, 2020

paulbarden said:
I'll answer your question with a question: if you use warm water to wash prints, how do you know how much you can reduce the wash time by and still have a properly washed print?

The answer is to test your washing efficiency with the Kodak HT-2 test for residual hypo. Everyone who seriously processes fiber-base prints should do this occasionally just to make sure that their washing regime is adequate.

For the OP: Warmer water speeds up the washing process. Warmer water also softens the emulsion and can result in damage. There's a sweet spot at about 70°-72° Fahrenheit (22-24°C) IIRC. There are lots of graphs, etc. somewhere, either here, the LF forum or somewhere else on the net if you feel like searching. Modern papers are pretty robust, but I'd still be careful. You don't want problems down the road. 30°-40°C is 86°-104°F and seems too warm to me...

Doremus

M Carter · Apr 22, 2020

paulbarden said:
I'll answer your question with a question: if you use warm water to wash prints, how do you know how much you can reduce the wash time by and still have a properly washed print?

I'll answer your question with a question: how do you know your prints are properly washed at ANY given water temperature? The old "running water for an hour" statement? Are you sure they're clean after an hour?

Some people haven't heard of testing? I use Formulary's RHT, and I use it on any print that will be sold, and at least one print from each wash session. A bottle lasts for ages.

And - washing takes place via diffusion, which is a chemical process. Heat tends to speed up chemical reactions and processes. Most of my fiber prints are washed clean in 20 minutes. They get a solid initial rinse, proper rinse in HCA, and after 20 minutes in a warm water wash they get tested for residual thiosulphate. Guessing about something as critical as washing seems silly to me, as does using tons of water you don't need.

I've never had a problem with factory-coated emulsions delaminating or frilling (coating my own paper is another story and they get cooler water). I've found that New Seagull MG emulsion is more delicate after washing, so those just get a gentle paper towel wipe vs. a squeegie. (But I think that paper may be history now, RIP).

removedacct1 · Apr 22, 2020

M Carter said:
I'll answer your question with a question: how do you know your prints are properly washed at ANY given water temperature? The old "running water for an hour" statement? Are you sure they're clean after an hour?

Because I follow manufacturer guidelines for proper washing. What more needs to be said??

Doremus Scudder · Apr 22, 2020

paulbarden said:
Because I follow manufacturer guidelines for proper washing. What more needs to be said??

Paul,

That's certainly a good way to go about things. Manufacturers, especially Kodak (in the good old days) and Ilford have done the testing and built in generous safety factors.

However, if you want or need to deviate from the manufacturer's recommended wash temperature for any reason, then testing your wash efficiency with a residual hypo test is really the only practical way to know if your regime is working. The OP is washing at a higher temperature than recommended, so testing would be in order for him if he wanted to optimize his wash times. That's all.

Best,

Doremus

Sirius Glass · Apr 22, 2020

earlz said:
In my experience, and according to how the chemistry/physics of it work, yes. The only risk you run is that if your water is too hot on some materials you run the risk of the emulsion peeling up or becoming overly fragile. I've never had any problems with FB paper in hot water using modern materials though. RC paper can also be rinsed under hot water. I've found just 2-3 minutes of running hot water with RC paper is enough to make my hypo-check tests give perfect hypo-free results, and 1 minute good enough for "non-archival, but will probably last a decade" RC test prints. For FB it varies on the material used, fixer age, etc. but in general it still requires at least 30 minutes before it is cleared enough to be archival. For non-archival test print stuff I typically only rinse for 5-10 minutes

I too have floated the emulsion off paper when rinsing in warm water. I only used warm water once and learned my lesson.

Rich Ullsmith · Apr 24, 2020

Anecdotal: many years ago, split toned a dozen or so large prints in a batch, maybe a 12 hour session. Put them in the final wash tank, turned on the trickle, and passed out.

Well, actually turn the hot water on drip, not the cold. For perspective, the wife kept the hot water heater dialed up to 11 . . .so in the morning, very excited to squeegie and dry the fruits of labor and lust, I put my hand in that bucket of prints and it burned. It was that hot.

They had been like that for at least 10 hours. Some of those prints (mounted) are still up, with no "delamination." No ill effects from near boiling water. All fiber paper.

I would not advise this. But this is what happened.

RalphLambrecht · Apr 25, 2020

Doremus Scudder said:
Paul,

That's certainly a good way to go about things. Manufacturers, especially Kodak (in the good old days) and Ilford have done the testing and built in generous safety factors.

However, if you want or need to deviate from the manufacturer's recommended wash temperature for any reason, then testing your wash efficiency with a residual hypo test is really the only practical way to know if your regime is working. The OP is washing at a higher temperature than recommended, so testing would be in order for him if he wanted to optimize his wash times. That's all.

Best,

Doremus

well stated!

Pat Erson · Apr 26, 2020

RalphLambrecht said:
I trickle-wash for 30min at 20C.

Mr Lambrecht, would you please describe your method? Thanks!

Washing FB paper in warm water...?

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