Washing developer off a print

reub2000 · Mar 19, 2007

TF-4 recommends against using an acid stop bath. So I've been washing the developer in my print washer, which is just a laundry detergent bucket with holes drilled in the side. I've noticed that it takes a long time for the slimy feeling of the developer to wash off the paper. While the paper is still slimy, the paper must still be developing right? Is there a faster way to stop the development without a weak acid? Will using an acid stop with paper really harm TF-4?

Sparky · Mar 19, 2007

Slimy feeling generally means alkaline. With pretty much everything. Most soap, for example, is slightly alkaline. You'll notice the vinegar feels quite the opposite. So - it just means that the alkaline dev on your print isnt' quite washed off yet.

reub2000 · Mar 19, 2007

Figured that. Plus the paper has an incorporated developer that works in an alkaline environment.

Sparky · Mar 19, 2007

What about just putting it directly in the fix? Or making a stop bath that is composed of diluted fixer. It strikes me as just ODD that they would stipulate that requirement! Anyway - I'm a bit worried that a water bath would affect development in an uncontrolled manner - especially as more dev gets into the bath... (??)

dancqu · Mar 19, 2007

reub2000 said:
Plus the paper has an incorporated developer
that works in an alkaline environment.

Have you specifically tested for DI emulsion?
I've tested four maybe five papers for developer
incorporated emulsion and have found none.
What paper might that be? Dan

Dan Henderson · Mar 19, 2007

I use TF4 after a 30 second "stop wash" in water running through my print washer. I suspect that a little development may continue to occur in the water, but my theory is that all of the prints develop to about the same degree, so as long as I do them all the same, whatever development occurs is accounted for. I do not observe variations in development so don't worry about it.

I also occasionally have cerebral flatus and accidently put my print directly into the TF4 without the intermediate wash. Again, development does not appear to be changed, and the only issue that I see is fixer contamination.

reellis67 · Mar 19, 2007

Sparky,

TF-4 is alkaline, and using an acid stop would, as I understand it, very rapidly degrade the fixer due to pH change. I once attempted an acid stop bath just as an experiment to see what would happen and found that after only a few 8x10 prints the fixer turned quite yellow and smelled awful, where normally it appears quite clear with very little odor unless your nose is right in the tray.

- Randy

Jim Noel · Mar 19, 2007

If you rinse the film in two 30 second water rinses prior to placing in the TF4, you should have no problem. I use a water rinse with a non hardening fixer and have no problems with the combination.

Bruce Osgood · Mar 19, 2007

Additionally to whats been stated above, a two fix regime will benefit your negatives greatly. Remember, fixing creates by products that remain in the fixer. Using the total time to fix divided by two fixing baths lets the second fix remain 'clean' and do its job. The second fix replaces the first after a while and new second fix is introduced. Rinsing between also will prolong the life of the second fix.

Thomas Bertilsson · Mar 19, 2007

I use TF-4 all the time and use a simple water bath as stop bath. It works well.

If you consider the fact that you should develop your prints until they're developed 'completely', meaning that leaving the print in the developer for a little bit longer would have little or no effect on the densities, the little amount of developer that might remain on the print surface before you put it in the fix would be insignificant to the end result.
The developer will exhaust quickly in the water bath anyway as it becomes extremely diluted.

The two-bath fixing regimen is a great way not only to ensure the print is dunked in fresh fixer, but also a way to avoid problems with fixer exhaustion.

- Thom

Tom Hoskinson · Mar 19, 2007

I also use a water rinse and two fixing baths.

reub2000 · Mar 20, 2007

What about dunking it in a mild stop bath, of about 1+9 vinegar, and then washing it off for about 30 seconds to remove both the developer and acid?

reub2000 · Mar 20, 2007

dancqu said:
Have you specifically tested for DI emulsion?
I've tested four maybe five papers for developer
incorporated emulsion and have found none.
What paper might that be? Dan

I'm using Ilford MG IV RC. I've taken strips and immersed it in a sodium carbonate solution, and watched it turn grey.

Vaughn · Mar 20, 2007

Another thing to consider is that it really does not matter if development stops completely and immeadiately when using a water-bath as a stop bath...as long as one is consistant with the time in the water bath. Any development that might still occur in the water bath just becomes part of the total development time determined by one's test strips.

One can change the water occasionally to prevent developer from increasing in the water bath (or use running water.) Also the carry over from the developer should be minimal if one lets the print drain for 15 seconds or so (for an 8x10) before putting it into the water bath...or at least until the print stops dripping developer.

Vaughn

Photo Engineer · Mar 20, 2007

Have you all noticed the milky cloudy precipitate in the TF-4 concentrate? That is the very heavy level of buffer in the fixer which allows for the use of an acid stop bath and still allows you to have an alkaline fix.

Yes, you can use a stop bath with TF-4. You can also use an acid stop and then a quick dip in water if you are overly concerned.

In any case, TF-4 will be fully functional down to a pH of about 6.5, as my own studies on fixer activity have shown.

This is not a big problem with a highly buffered alkaline fix. However, if the fix is alkaline and poorly buffered, this might be a problem.

PE

dancqu · Mar 21, 2007

reub2000 said:
I'm using Ilford MG IV RC. I've taken strips and immersed it
in a sodium carbonate solution, and watched it turn grey.

Not so surprising a RC paper with DI emulsion. RC was first
of all a product for rapid machine processing. Quick to
develop, quick to fix, and quick to wash. Dan

Washing developer off a print

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