Washing BW film after processing

Mainecoonmaniac · Jan 5, 2021

I’ve been processing film the same way for 40 years. Decades ago, when water was more plentiful, I was taught wash in running water for 5 minutes. Now with climate change, this method of washing is not environmentally friendly. There’s the water saving Ilford way. The suggest “fill the tank with water at the same temperature as the processing solution and invert it 5 times. Drain the water away and refill then invert the tank 10 times. Finally, drain and refill the tank again then invert it twenty times before draining.”
How effective is this method?
Thanks for your input!

jim10219 · Jan 5, 2021

Pretty effective. Though I do invert mine more than that.

Try it with Tmax. The purple dye is a pretty good indicator to let you know if you're washing your film correctly. When it comes out clear, you know you're doing it right.

Andrew O'Neill · Jan 5, 2021

I've been doing it the Ilford way for at least 25 years. My first darkroom in my flat in Japan was a spare bedroom. No running water so I had to carry it in. Ilford way was better suited. After a quick rinse, I give the film a bath in HCA, followed by 10, fills soaks with agitation, and dumps. The soaks are in 24ish °C.

R.Gould · Jan 5, 2021

I have been doing this for a lot of years with no problem, but I was taught to add another step that is fill tank and invert slowly for 40 inversions,

osella · Jan 5, 2021

I haven’t been at it that long but I use the ilford method extended to 5 total fill/agitate and dumps with 5min(sometimes 10 if I’m not watching the clock) soaks in between as recommended by Bill Troop in the Film Developing Cookbook.

I believe the soak time makes a big difference, I never have any problems with retained dyes. The pink dye never seemed to wash out consistently with the current Ilford method.

Cholentpot · Jan 5, 2021

Mainecoonmaniac said:
I’ve been processing film the same way for 40 years. Decades ago, when water was more plentiful, I was taught wash in running water for 5 minutes. Now with climate change, this method of washing is not environmentally friendly. There’s the water saving Ilford way. The suggest “fill the tank with water at the same temperature as the processing solution and invert it 5 times. Drain the water away and refill then invert the tank 10 times. Finally, drain and refill the tank again then invert it twenty times before draining.”
How effective is this method?
Thanks for your input!

I live where there is more water than we know what to do with.

5 minutes of running water? I was taught 20, in a pinch 15. Then again I learned to process film in Buffalo NY so who knows...

Sirius Glass · Jan 5, 2021

I use the Jobo processor so constant agitation for 30 seconds with half a liter repeated 11 times so a total of six liters of water, much less than running water for five minutes.

otto.f · Jan 5, 2021

There’s an authoritative dark room cook book from Jost Marchesi which says that washing fixer is quite neutral to agitation. So the Ilford method is in line with that. The environmental argument though is a bit of a catch 22. Spoiling water is the argument there, but in the Ilford method the fixer comes less diluted in the drain. So what’s worse?

Mainecoonmaniac · Jan 5, 2021

Sirius Glass said:
I use the Jobo processor so constant agitation for 30 seconds with half a liter repeated 11 times so a total of six liters of water, much less than running water for five minutes.

It's much more efficient washing. If a faucet runs 1 gallon per minute to wash you film, at 5 minutes, that's 5 gallons vs 6 liters. I was calculating the Ilford method of using 3 rinse cycles, for a 500 ml tank, that's only 1.5 liters.

Mainecoonmaniac · Jan 5, 2021

Cholentpot said:
I live where there is more water than we know what to do with.

5 minutes of running water? I was taught 20, in a pinch 15. Then again I learned to process film in Buffalo NY so who knows...

You don't live in California.

But when I was a kid in Sacramento, water wasn't metered and people use to use their garden hoses to rake their leaves.

Vaughn · Jan 5, 2021

Lots of water where I live in CA -- and the rest of CA wants it. I still fill and dump -- but not very good at keeping track, so I have a bias of over-doing it. Minimum of 5 minutes for each soak with occasional aggitation to keep fresh water next to the emulsion. I do mostly sheet film, and wash each sheet of 8x10 film in its own 8x10 tray (after a couple short exchanges of water in the Jobo Expert Drum to get rid of surface fix.)

Cholentpot · Jan 5, 2021

Mainecoonmaniac said:
You don't live in California.

But when I was a kid in Sacramento, water wasn't metered and people use to use their garden hoses to rake their leaves.

We have seasons here. And the Great Lakes Pact. Want our water? Move here or fight us.

Mainecoonmaniac · Jan 5, 2021

Vaughn said:
Lots of water where I live in CA -- and the rest of CA wants it. I still fill and dump -- but not very good at keeping track, so I have a bias of over-doing it. Minimum of 5 minutes for each soak with occasional aggitation to keep fresh water next to the emulsion. I do mostly sheet film, and wash each sheet of 8x10 film in its own 8x10 tray (after a couple short exchanges of water in the Jobo Expert Drum to get rid of surface fix.)

In the Central Valley where I live, there's competing interest for water, mainly agriculture. From years of drought, farmers have been drawing on wells up and down the valley causing the the ground to sink. I've seen a lot of changes in how they irrigate fields and orchards. Right where I live, almond orchards use to be flooded. Now, the farmers use drip irrigation. Just like farmers, I'll have to adapt who I process film and work in the darkroom.

Sirius Glass · Jan 5, 2021

Mainecoonmaniac said:
In the Central Valley where I live, there's competing interest for water, mainly agriculture. From years of drought, farmers have been drawing on wells up and down the valley causing the the ground to sink. I've seen a lot of changes in how they irrigate fields and orchards. Right where I live, almond orchards use to be flooded. Now, the farmers use drip irrigation. Just like farmers, I'll have to adapt who I process film and work in the darkroom.

The Central Valley farmers like to waste water. They are pumping out so much ground water that the roads are sinking below the bridges leaving gaps. As Mark Twain said about California, "Whiskey is for drinking. Water is for fighting."

Vaughn · Jan 5, 2021

Corporate farms make different type of decisions than family farms...and unfortunately the corporate decisions affect the market and thus the family farmer. As a result (and of course many other factors), water has been mined in the Central Valley and will soon be gone. The ground sinkage prevents the aquafers from refilling, even if the pumping pressure was reduced. Farmers are adapting.

Some of our water already heads outside the watershed; Trinity River water pumped east to the Central Valley and Eel River water sent thru a tunnel into the Russian River for the vineyards of Mendocino County and south. On the Klamath, dams pool and heat up the water, killing salmon. Things are changing, though, dam removals, etc.

But I use the soak and dump method for negatives and my alt process prints. This area has had times of drought and water restrictions. In such times I will be saving all the wash water for the garden.

David Allen · Jan 5, 2021

The Ilford film washing method was developed at a time of severe drought in the UK.

My father tested the system when it was first publicised and found that it was not 100% accurate. Following some tests he concluded that the system worked perfectly BUT only when the film was removed (placed in a holding jug of water) and the tank cleaned before returning the spirals and washing the film. As someone who retailed materials from Ilford, my father asked one of the reps to check with the technicians if they had indeed removed the film and cleaned the tank / moved the film to a clean tank. The rep visited a couple of weeks later and confirmed that they had indeed moved the film to a clean tank when working out the washing sequence.

Ever since then, I have (for more than 40 years) always followed the following sequence:

Removed spirals from tank and place in a jug of water at the correct (20˚C) temperature.
Thoroughly wash all parts of the tank.
Add water to the tank and replace the films.
Pour out the water.
Pour in water, invert 10 times and pour out water.
Pour in water, invert 10 times and pour out water.
Pour in water, invert 20 times and pour out water.
Pour in water, invert 20 times,
Remove spirals and place in jugs with water and wetting agent.
After a minimum of 2 minutes, remove film, attach clips, pour water from jug down both sides of the film
Hang to dry.

As someone who also does individual teaching, I regularly test all of my processing methods to ensure that my students receive accurate and up-to-date information. I can assure everyone that the above washing sequence has always delivered negatives that are thoroughly clean.

Bests,

David.

Note: my temporary website address is: http://dsallen.carpentier-galerie.de

MattKing · Jan 5, 2021

We have a really long and very useful Sticky Thread on just this subject.
You can read it here: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/film-washing-test.69416/
Based on the tests therein, it makes a difference if you use a wash aid.
Here is Kodak's recommendation:

Note three things from that chart:
1) it includes a wash aid;
2) it suggests either a x10 fill and dump regime; or
3) it suggests 5 minutes of washing, in a water flow that changes the water at least once in that 5 minutes.
That suggested water flow is really low. If you are using a 1 litre tank, and that flow, you are probably using 3 liters or less of water. That is only 30% of what a x10 fill and dump regime.
Most people run the water too fast.

Andrew O'Neill · Jan 5, 2021

Wash aides are something that I have always used. I've got several packages of Fuji's QuickWash. One little package makes 2L, and last quite a while...and it's so cheap. Every time I go to Japan, I stock up on it.

Cholentpot · Jan 5, 2021

MattKing said:
We have a really long and very useful Sticky Thread on just this subject.
You can read it here: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/film-washing-test.69416/
Based on the tests therein, it makes a difference if you use a wash aid.
Here is Kodak's recommendation:
View attachment 263059
Note three things from that chart:
1) it includes a wash aid;
2) it suggests either a x10 fill and dump regime; or
3) it suggests 5 minutes of washing, in a water flow that changes the water at least once in that 5 minutes.
That suggested water flow is really low. If you are using a 1 litre tank, and that flow, you are probably using 3 liters or less of water. That is only 30% of what a x10 fill and dump regime.
Most people run the water too fast.

I have no clue where I got 15-20 min from. What a waste. 5 minutes? Really.

Edit: I don't use hypo. 15-20 minutes it is

Vaughn · Jan 5, 2021

Matt- the link to past discussions mention very different wash needs when using hardening fixes vs non-hardening -- and also less with alk. fixes than when using acidic fixes.

So a lot of factors in play. I use non-hardening fixes, sometimes acidic, sometime non-acidic. But I also use pyro developers, which starts hardening the gelatin before it even gets to the fix -- but I use an alk. fixer that re-softens the gelatin before washing...allowing better washes.

Auer · Jan 5, 2021

Cholentpot said:
I have no clue where I got 15-20 min from. What a waste. 5 minutes? Really.

Edit: I don't use hypo. 15-20 minutes it is

Would a hypo cut down wash times that dramatically?

Sirius Glass · Jan 5, 2021

Cholentpot said:
I have no clue where I got 15-20 min from. What a waste. 5 minutes? Really.

Edit: I don't use hypo. 15-20 minutes it is

Auer said:
Would a hypo cut down wash times that dramatically?

Hypo is fixer. You must mean Hypo Clearing Agent which is not hypo; it is anti-hypo.

Rick A · Jan 5, 2021

I use EcoPro Clear Fix Neutral fixer and use the Ilford wash method for roll films. For sheet film, I rotary process, and use 5 - 250ml changes of water and run 2 minutes per change, followed by a final rinse of distilled water with a drop of LFN added. I don't use stop bath, so two rinses of 250ml water 30 seconds each. I use less than two liters of tap water plus 250ml distilled water per batch.

Pentode · Jan 5, 2021

Auer said:
Would a hypo cut down wash times that dramatically?

Sirius Glass said:
Hypo is fixer. You must mean Hypo Clearing Agent which is not hypo; it is anti-hypo.

Exactly. Hypo is what we’re trying to remove here.

Washing aids such as Kodak’s Hypo Clearing Agent or Heico’s Perma Wash do, indeed, cut down on wash times dramatically.

Auer · Jan 5, 2021

Pentode said:
Exactly. Hypo is what we’re trying to remove here.

Washing aids such as Kodak’s Hypo Clearing Agent or Heico’s Perma Wash do, indeed, cut down on wash times dramatically.

Thanks, indeed I meant HCA.

Washing BW film after processing

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