Washing before selenum toning?

ChuckP · Jul 27, 2011

I've always gone straight from the second fixer into toner mixed with water. But some balanced alkali is added to the toner. I picked this up years ago at a workshop and have always done it. http://stores.photoformulary.com/-strse-782/Swan-Valley/Detail.bok
But I don't use plain hypo just my normal second fix. Also I believe that some people don't use any alkali and have no problems.

MattKing · Jul 27, 2011

Hiernst said:
Thanks, Matt.

One last quick question - since the life of selenium toner is limited by the severely limited life of the hypo clearing agent used for dilution ----- will the toner bath last as long as the indications on the HCA bottle say or will it's life be cut even shorter by mixing it with the toner?

Again, thanks so much!

Hiernst:

I don't know the answer to your question.

I would point out, however, that selenium toner that is not diluted with HCA has the great advantage of having a very long life. So I expect that the observations about limiting that life refer to the loss of that advantage.

Hiernst · Jul 28, 2011

Thanks for the suggestion, Chuck. I just ordered some balanced alkali. It's cheap and I figure it might be a simple/effective way to go.

Looks like I'm going to try this scenario:

- Multigrade Developer
- Ilfostop
- Rapid Fix 1
- Rapid Fix 2
- Selenium Toner (with balanced alkali)
- HCA
- Wash and Dry

For selenium stains, they appear during the process, not after the fact and months later, correct? I'd hate to think I found a good work-process only to discover later that I have ruined prints.

Guillaume Zuili · Jul 28, 2011

No need to wash before Selenium.
Fix / water bath / Selenium / Hypo Clear then Wash.

nworth · Jul 28, 2011

Be sure you fix well enough. You probably do not need a full wash before selenium toning, but you should give the print at least a very thorough rinse. FB prints are more of a problem than RC in this regard. HCA may be helpful with them.

bill spears · Jul 28, 2011

I'm surprised many people wash very little before going into the selenium (some it appears straight to selenium with no wash at all !). If it's Fibre paper it soaks up fixer like a sponge. Stains might not show til months down the line (perhaps, when someone has paid money for the print and its hanging framed and glazed on their wall !!).

I guess I'm over fussy but for me it's; 2 bath fix - brief wash to get rid of surface fixer - HCA - further slightly longer wash - Selenium - brief wash - HCA - final wash for 30+ mins.
I know some recommend mixing HCA into the selenium but I like to keep the selenium uncontaminated.

I stress this is fibre paper and acid fixing baths. I'm not familiar with the alkaline fixers so accept there are probably variations.

Smudger · Jul 29, 2011

Bill - lets get this clear. The FB print is saturated with developer, then gets flooded with stop, and then the fixer gets its chance. At this point,the emulsion and substrate, are both loaded with,lets call them fluids. KRST contains fixer,so removing it from the print with washaid, and then re-subjecting the print to toner containing fixer,and then removing it again,seems counter-intuitive to me.
It seems there are only two sound approaches - a quick rinse after fix -into Se, or -and this makes sense if you wish to evaluate a dry print and select out your best work for toning , the full wash,washaid,routine.
In my experience,both methods work for me,without problems. Those happen when people try what we,down in the Antipodes,call the "Half-arsed" methods.
Acid fix ? -what brand do you use ?
Ian.

K-G · Jul 29, 2011

bill spears said:
I'm surprised many people wash very little before going into the selenium (some it appears straight to selenium with no wash at all !). If it's Fibre paper it soaks up fixer like a sponge. Stains might not show til months down the line (perhaps, when someone has paid money for the print and its hanging framed and glazed on their wall !!).

I guess I'm over fussy but for me it's; 2 bath fix - brief wash to get rid of surface fixer - HCA - further slightly longer wash - Selenium - brief wash - HCA - final wash for 30+ mins.
I know some recommend mixing HCA into the selenium but I like to keep the selenium uncontaminated.

I stress this is fibre paper and acid fixing baths. I'm not familiar with the alkaline fixers so accept there are probably variations.

It's correct that stains can appear long after the processing. That happened to me a few years ago with a series of about 10 larger prints. Nothing showed up during the first half year and then they were set aside for storage. When I took them out again, more than half of them had various staining paterns ( orange/brown ). All the prints were framed with glass in front of them and masonite board as backing behind the acid free mounting board. On one print the glass had broken and I had removed the fragments completely. The prints were stored with front towards back of the next. The print without glass was by far the most stained of them all.
I suspect that the reasons are

1. I overestimated the capacity of the fixer so the last prints were not fixed properly. Large print sizes ( 16 X 20 ) can fool you a bit as each one is comparable to 4 8 X 10 .
2. Vapours from the masonite board has affected the emulsion as the one without proctive glass , and facing the back of the next , was the most damaged.

Since then I have completely reworked my processing and mounting procedures and have not had any more problems.

Karl-Gustaf

Ian Grant · Jul 29, 2011

Hiernst said:
One last quick question - since the life of selenium toner is limited by the severely limited life of the hypo clearing agent used for dilution ----- will the toner bath last as long as the indications on the HCA bottle say or will it's life be cut even shorter by mixing it with the toner?

My experience is that KRST has a very long shelf life both as a cocentrate and made up as working solution.

However there's no need to add HCA to it when diluting there's Sodium Sulphite present in Selenium toners anyway they don't need more.

Ian

bill spears · Jul 29, 2011

KRST contains fixer,so removing it from the print with washaid, and then re-subjecting the print to toner containing fixer,and then removing it again,seems counter-intuitive to me.

Acid fix ? -what brand do you use ?

I use Ilford Hypam or Rapid which are fairly similar weak acid fixers (PH around 5 I think).

I understand selenium toner contains fixer (ammonium thiosulphate) in it but not in the quantities of of the paper fixing baths. My theory is: putting fixer-laden prints straight nto the selenium bath will raise the level of ammonium thiosulpate in it. If this selenium bath is re used (as is often the case) you'll eventually be taking prints out of the fixing bath and putting them into another one !
As stated I am quite fussy and do like to keep things meticulous, clean and orderly.

Ian Grant · Jul 29, 2011

bill spears said:
I use Ilford Hypam or Rapid which are fairly similar weak acid fixers (PH around 5 I think).

I understand selenium toner contains fixer (ammonium thiosulphate) in it but not in the quantities of of the paper fixing baths. My theory is: putting fixer-laden prints straight nto the selenium bath will raise the level of ammonium thiosulpate in it. If this selenium bath is re used (as is often the case) you'll eventually be taking prints out of the fixing bath and putting them into another one !
As stated I am quite fussy and do like to keep things meticulous, clean and orderly.

The critical factor with any fixer carried over into Selenium toner is it's silver content, and particularly it's degree of exhausion beacuse there will be semi-soluble silver-thiosulphate complexes if care isn't taken and these cause staining.

So two bath fix where the second bath is very fresh isn't a problem, the alternative recommended by Ansel Adams is a plain hypo bath (Sodium Thiosulphate) before Selenium toning.

Personally I prefer to wash my prints after fixing and use a plain 1-2% Sodium Sulphite solution as a wash aid, I do this because I don't always tone imediately, I prefer to selenium tone in daylight.

Ian

bill spears · Jul 29, 2011

I was going to say silver carry over aswell Ian, but yes I suppose most of the silver ends up in the first fixing bath.

Keeping the selenium working solution ''clean'' it can be re used for quite a long time, and in the knowledge that when you reuse it'll be the same, which I find helps with consistency of results.

Katie · Jul 29, 2011

Okay ... have read through this thread and the other referenced on page 1.

Question (preface: I have just started using fiber paper and am interested in bleaching and toning in selenium for the asthetics)

Do I dev/stop/fix/HCA/archival wash
Let dry - examine dry down
Bleach
Then selenium tone

If so ... explain to me HOW to go about the bleaching to toning procedure.

Thanks.

Katie · Jul 29, 2011

I should add that I plan to do very localized bleaching ... just highlights - not overall print. I have read through the posts on that, too. Tips would be great.

bill spears · Jul 29, 2011

Katie said:
Okay ... have read through this thread and the other referenced on page 1.

Question (preface: I have just started using fiber paper and am interested in bleaching and toning in selenium for the asthetics)

Do I dev/stop/fix/HCA/archival wash
Let dry - examine dry down
Bleach
Then selenium tone

If so ... explain to me HOW to go about the bleaching to toning procedure.

Thanks.

That sequence is similar to how I'd do it. After bleaching though it's usual to refix and wash before the selenium tone, although going straight to selenium without fixing can yield some interesting effects.
I would normally print darker and perhaps to a lower contrast with muddy highlights when doing bleach-backs, as the highlights can be lost completely after bleaching and refixing.
A more common practice would be to Sepia tone after the bleach, then wash, then selenium + final wash.
Results obtained with any toning combinations are heavily influenced by the type of paper emulsion.

Bill

Ian Grant · Jul 29, 2011

You need to do some tests, scrap prints and test strips are ideal, there's subtle differances between bleaching slightly and Selenium toning and adding anaother fixing step. Also the type of bleach is critical as well, is it a rehalogenating bleach, or a reducer (ferricyanide & hypo). There's a lot of variables.

Ian

Katie · Jul 29, 2011

I have it in my cart now from Freestyle.

Formulary Potassium Ferricyanide (Bleach) Powder 1 Lb. (this is a rehalogenating, right?)

Do I need this too?
Formulary Potassium Bromide 1 lb.

And what kind of selenium toner should I get? And do I need this too?
Formulary TF-5 Archival Rapid Fixer 4 Liters to make 16 Liters

Katie · Jul 29, 2011

This is what I want to do:

Another, safer or more easy to control way to lighten prints is to mix a reversible bleach so that if you over bleach which is verrrry easy - don't ask me how I know. I just know. You can just rinse the print off, plop the print back in a print developer like Dektol and bring the print back to full density - and then, bleach again. Once you are sure you have the density you want, rinse the bleached print fully and then fix, wash aid, and do a full wash, etc just like normal.

Reversible bleaches are called rehalogenating bleaches. They turn your image back into a bleached but developable condition.

The proportions are not critical. I just stick with general proportions like the below, but I mix far less.
potassium ferricyanide . . . . 10 grams
potassium bromide . . . . . . . .5 grams
water to . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 litre
I dilute the bleach till it is working slowly enough to be controllable - quite diluted. It can be applied locally witha brush or a qtip so that you have control of details and portions of a print.

And if you overbleach, the print is not ruined, just rinse it off, put it back in the dektol to redevelop and start again. You can also locally redevelop with a brush or qtip too, so that the control is like a second chance to burn and dodge, but in room light.

I mix small amounts and chuck any remains of the bleach after one use.

Note that through redevelopment you can go no darker than your original print so the process does have it's limits. Once you fix the print you will have removed any developable silver and put a limit on the ability to darken the print. It's the fixer that removes undeveloped silver halides. So, I do not add fixer into my bleaches but keep them as a final separate step. There are a lot of posts and threads here on bleaching.

trexx · Jul 29, 2011

Katie said:
Formulary Potassium Ferricyanide (Bleach) Powder 1 Lb. (this is a rehalogenating, right?)

Yes

Do I need this too?
Formulary Potassium Bromide 1 lb.

Yes

And what kind of selenium toner should I get?

KRST Kodak Rapis Selenium Toner

And do I need this too?
Formulary TF-5 Archival Rapid Fixer 4 Liters to make 16 Liters

Yes, TF-5 or TF-4 . TF-4 is what I use, mostly out of habit, but does smell of ammonia.

bill spears · Jul 29, 2011

Basically sounds about right Katie.
A few points worth mentioning though:
When you bleach-back highlights with Ferri to the density you want, fixing it usually lightens it even further. Then you're left with a totally featureless highlight that cant be recovered in developer (because the silver has been fixed out).

Another method is to mix the fixer and bleach together in one solution (Farmers Reducer). This way you see the bleaching and lightening occurring at the same. It's VERY easy to go too far though and best to stop before you reach the density you want with a sloosh of water.
I'm not sure of the correct ratios or dilutions of fixer/bleach to make Farmers and I think certain types of fixer (is it sodium thiosulphate ?) are normally used.
My experience of bleaching is it takes considerable practice and patience (especially doing fine details with a brush). Be prepared to screw up quite a few prints !!
Just to add another obstacle........ some emulsions bleach much quicker and easier than others.

Ian Grant · Jul 30, 2011

Formulary Potassium Ferricyanide (Bleach) Powder 1 Lb. (this is a rehalogenating, right?)

Unless it contains Potassium or Sodium Bromide, or Chlorise on ut's own Ferricyanide is not a rehalogenating bleach.

Some people use a plain Ferricyanide bleach (no bromide) others add bromide, and if you add Thiosulphate to plain thiosulphate you have Farmers reducer.

There's no set rules, papers vary substantially as Bill says soit's trials and experiments first to get the effects you desire.

Ian

Edwardv · Jul 30, 2011

Fiber paper is fixed in TF-4 fixer. Transferred to a mixed solution of Kodak hypo clearing agent and selenium tone. Wash for one hour. This method has served me well for 20+ years. When TF-4 was introduced.

Katie · Jul 30, 2011

So does it matter how the print was originally fixed if it has been archival washed and dried? Do I only need to use the TF-4/5 when using the selenium ... not when developing?

Washing before selenum toning?

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